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HCG the entire cycle?
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HCG the entire cycle? - 02-16-2007, 01:24 PM

I am going to be doing my first cycle of 500mg of test and 400mg of eq for 10-12 weeks. Is it safe to run 500iu once a week through the entire cycle so I don't get shut down? I want make sure I can run hcg that long since I read a lot that should only be run for a short amount of time but what is considered short? Would 10 weeks be too long? or maybe start the 4th week?

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02-16-2007, 04:03 PM

I would take it every fourth week during the cycle in three divided dosages.
   
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02-17-2007, 12:07 PM

Yeah, no problem with small regular doses during one's cycle. Hcg is extremely short acting and is best to use as little/as often as possible. Taking small/frequent doses during your cycle keep your testicles active and avoid atrophy which is a good thing. Taking it for PCT of every few weeks overloads the leydig cells making them less sensitive. A bad analagy that I can think of is eating to gain muscle: you can eat a lot after a long period of time after you are hungary, or you can consistantly eat every few hours to ensure a constant supply of aminos and never be hungary - bad analagy, but I just woke up.

So if taking 1000iu per week the best way to use it would be:
1st - 143iu per day
2nd - 286iu every other day
3rd - 500iu twice a week
no matter how you decide to dose it, I would never take more than 500iu in one day.
   
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02-19-2007, 12:12 PM

...

Last edited by mr.nitrofish; 05-26-2011 at 09:52 PM.
   
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02-23-2007, 01:09 AM

You'll still shut down and even worse your getting you body used to HCG you dont want that. 2-3 weeks after your done you need to "shock" you testes with HCG. Ive never understood guys who take the big shot of HCG the same day they take there final shot of Sust 250. Your test levels need to be at or below normal levels for HCG to work.
   
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02-23-2007, 03:46 AM

I usely go with tribulis to keep my boys ripe on cycle...


:satan:COVERED WITH DARKNESS FROM POLE TO POLE I THANK THE GODS FOR MY UNCONQURABLE SOUL:satan:[email protected]
   
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02-23-2007, 11:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5326
You'll still shut down and even worse your getting you body used to HCG you dont want that. 2-3 weeks after your done you need to "shock" you testes with HCG. Ive never understood guys who take the big shot of HCG the same day they take there final shot of Sust 250. Your test levels need to be at or below normal levels for HCG to work.
???
   
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02-27-2007, 10:39 AM

dont believe me see your local 2006 Anabolics pg 68 under Testicular Desensitization.
   
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02-27-2007, 04:32 PM

Quote:
Your test levels need to be at or below normal levels for HCG to work.
Quote:
dont believe me see your local 2006 Anabolics pg 68 under Testicular Desensitization.
Ok, I know what you are thinking know. You just got a little confused as far as the whole test level thing goes.

Men with normal LH levels and therefore normal endogenous testosterone levels (normally) or suppressed LH levels and therefore supressed endogenous tesosterone levels (always), respond to HCG as it mimics LH and LH stimulates the testes to produce testosterone and sperm production. People who are on AAS have supressed (almost always) LH levels even though their total testosterone (or deca, whatever) levels are high (since it is high your hypothalmus senses this and causes a negative feedback to stop/lower LH, same princpal as how SERMS work) - their endogenous test is low as the testes are not being stimulated by LH and are therefore responsive to HCG.
So hcg use during a cycle will help to maintain testes size and function - high doses and long term use will cause desenisitivity and possible (never documented) perminant shutdown. The testes "shrink" during one's cycle depending on the aas used/duration/etc. By stimulating the testes with an HCG or LH (as in your body's natural LH post cycle) test/sperm increases, which increases the metabolic demands of the testes and blood flow increases to that area in response to the metabolic demands causing hypertrophy (and discomfort/pain in my experience). But, when one uses exogenous LH (hcg) just like anything else in the body, endogenous LH is deduced in response to the LH/HCG sensed by the hypothalmus and the pituitary gland stops/lowers production of LH in response. Therefore causing supression on another level post-cycle when all we want to do is reach homeostatis again. In normal men who have low/normal test/sperm production; not attibutable to aas use, when HCG is administered normal production is by the testes, then the testes are deemed Eugonadic, and the problem is elsewhere such as the pituitary or hypothalmus, so if you can respond to HCG, there is no reason why you cannot respond to your own LH which is produced very quickly post-cycle, faster than test levels raise, therefore no need for HCG post-cycle as it is in itself suppressive, and should be used as a pre-post cycle drug to start post-cycle with larger balls - that's it.

Sorry it's such a lengthy post, and I do not have time to edit it and organize it in a reader friendly way - so I hope that it is clear and informative.
   
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02-28-2007, 03:27 AM

talking to doctors about LH years ago I 100% agree with Alpha male...


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02-28-2007, 07:29 PM

"Doctors undoubtedly recognize that when HCG is taken at too high a dosage OR for too long it can desensitize the LH receptor." "Its intake, is however limited to only 16 days."

Desensitization to gonadotropins in cultured Leydig tumor cells involves loss of gonadotropin receptors and decreased capacity for steroidgenesis. Freeman DA, Ascoli M Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1981 Oct; 78 (10):6309-13.

Could too long mean an 8 week cycle, when its suggested use is 16 days? Just putting some info out there many a bodybuilders have used HCG like this for decades.
   
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02-28-2007, 07:57 PM

[QUOTE=AlphaMale]Yeah, no problem with small regular doses during one's cycle. Hcg is extremely short acting and is best to use as little/as often as possible. Taking small/frequent doses during your cycle keep your testicles active and avoid atrophy which is a good thing. Taking it for PCT of every few weeks overloads the leydig cells making them less sensitive. A bad analagy that I can think of is eating to gain muscle: you can eat a lot after a long period of time after you are hungary, or you can consistantly eat every few hours to ensure a constant supply of aminos and never be hungary - bad analagy, but I just woke up.

So if taking 1000iu per week the best way to use it would be:
1st - 143iu per day
2nd - 286iu every other day
3rd - 500iu twice a week
no matter how you decide to dose it, I would never take more than 500iu in one day.[/QUOTE


Oh yea no offense but good luck trying to get 143 iu out of a 5000 iu single use glass vial. Imagine spending all night trying to eyeball that into IM pin.
   
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02-28-2007, 11:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5326
"Doctors undoubtedly recognize that when HCG is taken at too high a dosage OR for too long it can desensitize the LH receptor." "Its intake, is however limited to only 16 days.".
I agree with that. You can use 50 mg of clomid ever other day to keep your buddies happy.
   
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03-01-2007, 06:44 AM

Quote:
Doctors undoubtedly recognize that when HCG is taken at too high a dosage OR for too long it can desensitize the LH receptor." "Its intake, is however limited to only 16 days."
This is just like anything is the body. Too much LH = LH suppression and desensitization to avoid too high of levels. Moral is: too high of a dose can cause problems and that is why I (notice that I did not say doctors from the 1980's) recommend doses of <250iu per day - the idea (in my mind) is to replace and nothing more. a recent study showed that 250iu everyother day was understimulating compared to baseline, while 500iu EOD was just a little too stimulating. (of note I have never seen that 16 days rec. only 14, 28, 84 days. hmm.

Quote:
Desensitization to gonadotropins in cultured Leydig tumor cells involves loss of gonadotropin receptors and decreased capacity for steroidgenesis. Freeman DA, Ascoli M Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1981 Oct; 78 (10):6309-13.
A nice read on a controlled study not using humans. Doses of 100x recommended HCG use, which happens to be in itself about 3 times too high (according to latest studies, but I know mike likes his PDR) Sure too high of a dose caused resistance to hcg by lowering LH receptors to avoid imbalance.

Quote:
Could too long mean an 8 week cycle, when its suggested use is 16 days? Just putting some info out there many a bodybuilders have used HCG like this for decades
Again where's this 16 days come from? I'm just curious as it has no real relavence. Latest techniques are using more..... up-to-date. sure people have been following old-school doctrine for decades, so have doctors and that damn PDR.

Quote:
Oh yea no offense but good luck trying to get 143 iu out of a 5000 iu single use glass vial. Imagine spending all night trying to eyeball that into IM pin.
Never personally seen a pre-made HCG amp, just the 1000, 2000, 5000, 10000iu dry ones that you add water to. In that case to get 143iu you would add 3.5ml of water to your amp and shoot 1/10cc or whatever.

Listen, steroids are not studied much as far as benefits good for physique-enhancement, so let's take the information we have and use it to the best of our judgement. I am in no way saying that you are wrong regarding not using it during a cycle, just that your reasoning is. Some do it post-cycle (which is really a pre-cycle as their exogenous aas are still too high) some do it during. Their are people on HRT that take 1000iu everyweek for years....and they still respond to LH. I do not wish to argue anymore and the quotes are getting old and to top it all off - I do not even recommend hcg use at all. I use it occassionally when my nuts start climbing inside and get discomfort (yes, low dosages - usually 200iu/day for 20 days) but post cycle hcg makes no sense to me. Sorry rambling.

Mike does agree with that one quote of 16 days being the limit, so if you don't know where it came from, he should.

Hey about that 50mg clomid EOD, I've read that before, tried it, didn't work. Is/does it work for anyone else; I've never seen anyone say that it works or any studies, just people recommending it. Seriously shouldn't any serm or ai work too? I don't know, but do not see why not.
   
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03-01-2007, 06:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaMale
Mike does agree with that one quote of 16 days being the limit, so if you don't know where it came from, he should.
Greenspan & Baxter. Clinical Endocrinology 4th edition. Appleton and lange.

Boran & Boulpaep. Medical Physiology updated edition. Elsevier saunders.

Jacques Wallach MD. Interpretation of Diagnostic Tests. Eight edition. Lippincott Williams and Wilkins.
   
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03-02-2007, 02:56 AM

[QUOTE=AlphaMale]
Mike does agree with that one quote of 16 days being the limit, so if you don't know where it came from, he should.

Hey about that 50mg clomid EOD, I've read that before, tried it, didn't work. QUOTE]


Actually its 21 days for healthy males. The whole endocrine is a negative and positive feedback system. You could lower the dose to 500iu to avoid the risk of down regulating LH receptors in the testes or instead of doing an IM eod you could use 250 everyday. Any drug that affects the endocrine should be used accordingly. The old saying if one is good then to must be better is an irrational assumption that will get you in trouble.


As with the clomid it is possible that it doesn't work for you. Maybe you need a higher dose or need another drug or maybe you have developed a tolerance. Just because if one drug works for you doesnít mean it will work on someone else. I use to suffer severe headaches with no relief what ever I did. I once shoot 45mg of morphine in three divided dose one time because my head felt it was going to explode. I was so desperate and crying and in so much pain I shot it directly into my vein like an IV drug user would do. It took a total of 45mg to take the pain away and beside that I didnít feel high, I had no slur speech, my gait was stable. 45mg would probably put the majority of people down for a long time.
   
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03-03-2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:
Mike does agree with that one quote of 16 days being the limit, so if you don't know where it came from, he should.
This was your response.

Quote:
Greenspan & Baxter. Clinical Endocrinology 4th edition. Appleton and lange.

Boran & Boulpaep. Medical Physiology updated edition. Elsevier saunders.

Jacques Wallach MD. Interpretation of Diagnostic Tests. Eight edition. Lippincott Williams and Wilkins
Sorry Mike, I call BS!!! The Endocrinology book does not say that, the others might but I doubt it, who knows, and I think that is why you posted them, because no one here probably has these books.

Quote:
The whole endocrine is a negative and positive feedback system. You could lower the dose to 500iu to avoid the risk of down regulating LH receptors in the testes or instead of doing an IM eod you could use 250 everyday. Any drug that affects the endocrine should be used accordingly. The old saying if one is good then to must be better is an irrational assumption that will get you in trouble.
First you disagree with be, now you are practically quoting me? So we agree that very small doses are better than larger ones? I did after all say that one probably shouldn't ever take more than 500iu/day and that was where the whole 16 day dispute came in, so which is it agree of disagree, quote someone else or quote me?

Quote:
As with the clomid it is possible that it doesn't work for you. Maybe you need a higher dose or need another drug or maybe you have developed a tolerance. Just because if one drug works for you doesnít mean it will work on someone else.
Agreed, that is why I asked. Because I assume that most people of this or other boards aren't just rehashing information that they have no experience with, I said it didn't work for me, did it work for others; because if it does work for others then maybe a dose adjustment might work for me; I haven't seen one study or one person say that it does work when using high amounts of aas, just when dealing with hrt doses. Not saying it doesn't, just why I asked - so appearently you don't KNOW that it would work either.

Quote:
I use to suffer severe headaches with no relief what ever I did. I once shoot 45mg of morphine in three divided dose one time because my head felt it was going to explode. I was so desperate and crying and in so much pain I shot it directly into my vein like an IV drug user would do. It took a total of 45mg to take the pain away and beside that I didnít feel high, I had no slur speech, my gait was stable. 45mg would probably put the majority of people down for a long time
I once had constipation so bad..... Sorry Mike.
   
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03-03-2007, 03:34 PM

I posted the books. Do a search and buy them.
   
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03-04-2007, 03:22 AM

16 days comes from 2006 Ana Review perhaps youve herd of it?

"according to latest studies" This doesnt do it for me, why dont you credit your sources from these "latest studies"? You and I both know the body of research done on steroids has come and gone, since theyve been around for over half a century. So if youve have information that could benefit peoples health on this forum then why not share it? (after all isnt that why we are here?) If what your saying is based on personal experience then say so, I see nothing wrong with that.
   
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