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First Cycle
Old
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First Cycle - 03-02-2008, 08:07 AM

Been doing a lot of reading and research and it will be one of the following.

Either:
1-16 - 250mg/week Test E
1-16 - 400mg/week EQ
PCT - HCG/Nova/Clomid

Or:
1-16 - 500mg/week Test E
1-16 - 500mg/week EQ
PCT - Same as above

I'm 31, 5'10" and weigh 187lbs, 15% BF. I would like to get into the 200lb range while bringing the BF down to 8%.

Diet has always been my weak point, but I have managed to clean it up over the last couple of months. No more processed carbs, and bad fat, lots of quality protein split into 5 or 6 meals a day.

So my question is should I go with the low dose option or the higher one based on my goals? Also if there is anything that you guys feel should be changed please let me know.

I was considering adding Proviron throughout the cycle to keep any estrogen under control, but a friend said it makes you really horny. Seeing as the test will already be doing this would it be ill advised to include Proviron? I mean I don't want to be a walking hard-on for 16 weeks straight. How about Liquidex as an option instead?

Given the length of the cycle I was also thinking about weekly HCG to keep the boys looking normal. Good idea or should I just leave it for PCT?

Lastly, should I wait 1 weeks or 2 weeks after last shot to start PCT?

Sorry for all the questions, and I know all the answer can be found using search (I've been using it a lot), but I just wanted to make sure I have everything sorted ahead of time.
   
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03-02-2008, 06:38 PM

If it were me I would start slow and then ramp it up a bit...Then toward the end start tapering off and start your Pct.
Keep some extra Nolva on hand For any Gyno problems.
If you Have the HCG use it during @ 500iu 2 or 3 x per week.

Your on the right track and your Goals should be no problem.
After 4 months If you eat and train right Id guess you should Gain a good 15-25 Lbs. Expect to Lose some of that of course when you come off.


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Old
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Thanks - 03-03-2008, 04:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rAJJIN
If it were me I would start slow and then ramp it up a bit...Then toward the end start tapering off and start your Pct.
Keep some extra Nolva on hand For any Gyno problems.
If you Have the HCG use it during @ 500iu 2 or 3 x per week.

Your on the right track and your Goals should be no problem.
After 4 months If you eat and train right Id guess you should Gain a good 15-25 Lbs. Expect to Lose some of that of course when you come off.

Thanks for the reply

So would the following be a good idea

1 - 4 - 250mg/wk Test E, 400mg/wk EQ
5 - 12 - 500mg/wk Test E, 500mg/wk EQ
13 - 16 - 250mg/wk Test E, 400mg/wk EQ

3 - 18 - 25mg/day Proviron

4 - 16 - HCG once per week
17 - 18 - HCG every 5 days

18 - 21 - PCT Nova/Clomid


I would like to have something like Proviron or Liquidex during the cycle to keep water weight to a minimum
   
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03-03-2008, 12:09 PM

On the test I would do 1cc week one, 2cc week two, 3cc week 4 and stay at that untill the end and then come off in a simmilar way...depending on how it works out and whats left maybe even end on a shot of 1/2 cc (125 mg)
Id use the Eq at 2cc per week thru-out and stop it a week or so before you star winging yourself of the test at the end.

You deffinatley wouldnt need more then that. You could probably get By on half of that amount and still reach your goals. Id say though Gain more then you plan to keep.

Proviron I doubt will do much at 25mg. Maybe though.
Id say Bump that up to 25mg am and 25mg Pm if using it.
I have no experience with Liquidex so I cant help there..... Goodluck!


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03-03-2008, 12:17 PM

The more I think about it and think back to my first time thats a Lot of stuff to use.

Here is what My first cycle was YEARS ago..
Sten and Laurabolin. The sten was Only 100mg Amps (test cyp) and the Laurabolin was 50mg Deca.
At the peak of that first cycle ( I used it in the same pyramid Style of cycle)
I know I wasnt using more then 4-5 sten amps and 6cc Of Laurabolin.
Ohh yea I had some stenox Tabs also (halotestin) I used in real small amounts before training.

So in short 400mg test cyp and 300mg of deca is what I "peaked" at on that cycle. I didnt know shit from Applebutter and I gained 25 Lbs. All I knew was Lift Hard and eat that protein and it worked.


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03-04-2008, 01:05 AM

rAJJIN has you pretty much set, good advice.

What I want to add is some simplification protocols. You are planning on HCG once per week weeks 4-16 and then every 5 days weeks 17-18 which would give you 3 doses over that 2 week period rather than 2. I would honestly just run Hcg from the beginning to the end with the same protocol: If you shoot once a week then take your hcg on the weekends, if you shoot twice a week then take your hcg twice a week - run it the same all the way, no reason to really change unless you needed to recovery atrophied testicles which shouldn't be the case since you are running hcg the whole time anyway.

I would strongly suggest running Proviron during your cycle. It will help keep you from being bloated as well as free-up your testosterone for use and just generally complement your cycle and yield better results. Arimidex (liquidex) probably wouldn't be needed if you ran your Proviron at 50+mg, but might be a good idea to control estrogen from the beginning to the end, either way run the Proviron and/or the Arimidex from the beginning and past the cycle up to the pct or just go old-school and taper off everything over that 6 week period instead.
   
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03-04-2008, 04:13 AM

So based on what the two of you are saying, things should go as follows?

1 - 250mg/wk Test E, 400mg/wk EQ
2 - 15 - 500mg/wk Test E, 400mg/wk EQ
16 - 250mg/wk Test E
17 - 125mg/wk Test E

1 - 18 - 50mg/day Proviron or .5mg/day Arimidex (liquidex)

4 - 18 - HCG once per week

18 - 21 - PCT Nova/Clomid


Also, I was doing some more reading regarding PCT and found an article that says Aromasin/Nova is a better option then Clomid/Nova. What's your take on that?
   
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03-04-2008, 01:18 PM

I have never tapered, and have had great results. From a "keep your levels stable" point I dont see where tapering adds anything, and could actually result in less gains than if you did not taper up then down.

Not to say it has no value, and if Raj had success doing it then thats cool too.

I just dont understand or see any benefit to tapering
   
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03-04-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by drob29
I have never tapered, and have had great results. From a "keep your levels stable" point I dont see where tapering adds anything, and could actually result in less gains than if you did not taper up then down.

Not to say it has no value, and if Raj had success doing it then thats cool too.

I just dont understand or see any benefit to tapering
Like with anything there are many ways to do things. I find it is usually the way people are shown and then they continue the cycle. Even if it is wrong the cycle continues. But many just have different views and feel best doing it a certain way - so tapering might work best for many people. People migth have done 30 cycles of gear but if they were shown at the start to taper the dose then they do that. Then they could try it other way later on but their way is to taper so most like to do it the way they feel most comfortable( mainly mental).

I agree with drob on this one. For certain things abit of tapering can be good. Maybe doing the likes of dbol which has a active life of 6-8 hours. But I don't mean major tapering but just a week of lowering before you come off. Obviously the likes of clen cos of it's sides has to be tapered. But I would say most other things it is a complete waste. They used to taper in the 'old' days (Arnie etc) but taht doesn't make it right. Scientically it is a complete waste. Not to mention long estered compounds are tapered by their very nature. Maybe if you doing 800mg of test e every week you could lower it to 400 the last week. But as far as doign something like 800, 600, 400, 200 etc... just a waste of time. Cos the human body produces about 8-15mg of test per day (not sure of the mean figure). So if you call it 10mg that is 70mg per week. Therefore when someone is on gear they could be doing 10 times that figure. Likely to be 20x with the inclusion of other compounds. So not matter if your doing 200 or 600 by the end you are gonan be completely shutdown so tapering I feel is more a mental thing than actually gives you better results.

But if your told do do that 1st cyle you will 2nd and 3rd and taht will be the norm and hard to get out of imo. I think either way is cool and you will get great results from both. But if your gonna use a long estered compound then don't bother. If you are using the likes of test p then a taoer could be useful but only minor... meaning not over 5 weeks or so. Just gradually lower if over the final 10 days or so.

But like I said it is cool both ways. Cos the likes of Raj is far more experienced then me and probably twice my size so what he is doing is spot on for him. But I don't believe in tapering for most compounds.


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03-04-2008, 06:08 PM

Tapering is Not a Must, I agree with you guys.
And Honestly I Doubt it will make a noticable difference in results either way at the end when all is said and done.

My reasoning behind that advice more then anything is
It will introduce it to his body easier. I Know for "me" Anytime I start something new Weather it be steroids,Insulin,HGH,IGF,Melanotan etc etc... I Like to Start off very Low Just to see How My body is going to react for the first time.

I also Think tapering off at the end instead of going from all Out being "ON"
to Nothing at all will help keep his body from freaking out and make it easier to come off.

Theres a million ways to go about it and Its all small differences.
The most important thing Ive learned is Be honest with your protein intake
and train Like a Man on a mission But without overtraining.
Im glad you guys feel comforatble to post your Opinions!! Thats exactly what the foum is made for. Im certainly no expert So Ill never argue there are different methods to go about it.


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03-04-2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rAJJIN
Tapering is Not a Must, I agree with you guys.
And Honestly I Doubt it will make a noticable difference in results either way at the end when all is said and done.

My reasoning behind that advice more then anything is
It will introduce it to his body easier. I Know for "me" Anytime I start something new Weather it be steroids,Insulin,HGH,IGF,Melanotan etc etc... I Like to Start off very Low Just to see How My body is going to react for the first time.

I also Think tapering off at the end instead of going from all Out being "ON"
to Nothing at all will help keep his body from freaking out and make it easier to come off.

Theres a million ways to go about it and Its all small differences.
The most important thing Ive learned is Be honest with your protein intake
and train Like a Man on a mission But without overtraining.
Im glad you guys feel comforatble to post your Opinions!! Thats exactly what the foum is made for. Im certainly no expert So Ill never argue there are different methods to go about it.
No I think that is spot on. Like I said both ways are cool. I completely agree with tapering at the start. Cos if someone was to react badly and they they go and inject 500mg of test in one go that can only be bad. So I would do that at the start. It's like most thing in life... if you buy a cream or anything etc etc etc they you put alittle bit on and see if you react before applying it all.

So your spot on Raj. And the coming off makes sense too. But I do think if you have being doing 500mg of test for many weeks if it is a long ester there is no need to taper as the active life is a natural taper. But like I said if I was doing 500 mg I would start lowering it to about 250mg for the final few (2 weeks worth of injections) weeks. But I wouldn't be tapering over many weeks.

I like you views too cos many are blinkered and it's their way or no way. But your different. Happy training.


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Last edited by Elvia1023; 03-04-2008 at 06:52 PM.
   
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03-04-2008, 08:36 PM

I just wanted to chime in on the tapering theory.
I think that the best way to do something is the simplest way with the least amount of drugs needed for the desired effect, hence I support tapering as the better method. But, I do change from that opinion depending on the situation. I would recommend running a traditional PCT if one were running short cycles or wanting to come off and recovery quickly before starting another one. But for one long'ish cycle per year types - tapering is the better method in my opinion. A note regarding the high concentration of long-estered testosterone being a natural taper within itself: it is, but not long enough, it is far better to have a longer controlled taper than just a few weeks, something more like 6. I must also state that in my opinion tapering is best done at and below natural endogenous levels (pre cycle levels) as tapering above endogenous levels only allows for a steady lowering and no recovery can happen until the exogenous testosterone reaches below endogenous levels. That is why i would recommend to anyone wanting to taper to run their dose, let's say 600mg and when over start at 100'ish and stay there for 3-4 weeks before lowering for the taper over another 3 weeks something like (of course all depending on the dose and cycle length)
week 1 - 100mg
week 2 - 100mg
week 3 - 100mg
week 4 - 75mg
week 5 - 50mg
week 6 - 25mg
   
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