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Anti est and AI help
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Anti est and AI help - 08-26-2008, 05:31 PM

Hey guys the most confusing thing for me is anti estrogens and AI when needed and how much. If you were 225lbs 6'0 to run say

500mg Test E weekly
300mg EQ weekly

For say 10 weeks

Then is nolvadex 20mg a day week 11-13
Clomid 100mg a day week 11 and 50mg a day week 12-13 Enough??


What about Arimidex?? HCG?? needed or no with only test and eq
What about other suggestions for someones 2nd cycle

First cycle consisting of 250 mg test week and thats it.

Thanks
   
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08-27-2008, 10:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GETDIESEL
Hey guys the most confusing thing for me is anti estrogens and AI when needed and how much. If you were 225lbs 6'0 to run say

500mg Test E weekly
300mg EQ weekly

For say 10 weeks

Then is nolvadex 20mg a day week 11-13
Clomid 100mg a day week 11 and 50mg a day week 12-13 Enough??


What about Arimidex?? HCG?? needed or no with only test and eq
What about other suggestions for someones 2nd cycle

First cycle consisting of 250 mg test week and thats it.

Thanks
That is a nice simple cycle. You don't need anymore as your first one was abit pointless... saying that not really cos it would have prepared you mentally and physically for this one. When you are new to gear a test only cycle is all you need. But incorporating other injectable or an oral is always good. I think you should get the most from each cycle you do. Your proposed amounts are right on track.

In regards to protection well the most important thing is an effective PCT. Test E's active life is about 8-10 days but taking other things on board you should wait 2 weeks. So PCT should be started 2 weeks after your last injection (so week 12 and not 11). Nolva is a must for PCT. The combo of nolva and clomid is tried and tested so you should go with that. Do not use AI's for PCT ever... they can be harmful.

PCT should be a min of 3 weeks but I like to do 4 weeks. Try something like the below. By the way there is no need to do more than 20mg of nolva ever... simply not needed and the additional dose is just ineffective.

Weeks 1-3= Clomid at 200mg day 1, days 2-11 at 100mg and days 12-21 at 50mg per day.
Weeks 1-3= Nolvadex at 20mg per day
Week 4= Nolvadex at 10mg per day

Many like to do 300mg of clomid on the first day and then the same as above but imo it is not really needed for you. The above is a great PCT.

Although it is written on many sites HCG is seriously bad for PCT. It is good if you are doing a 5 weeker and have that the first 2 weeks. That converts and is strong so you must ensure anti-e usage for a few weeks after HCG in PCT. HCG is basically used to stop your balls from shrinking. It has other uses but that is the main thing. Many use different methods. Many don't use it cos they will go tiny but will eventually come back over the weeks/months after your cycle. I would personally use it on a when you need it basis. So if they are tiny say in week 6 then do a small 500IU injection and repeat every few days until they are back. You don't need to be taking huge amounts. Other great way of using HCG is to simply do 500IU every 5-7 days during your cycle. To simplify it you could just do it every say Wed. That way it aids recovery and fits in nicely. But like I said HCG is not a must but always good to have on hand. Nolva and clomid are a must.

Now for AI usage... they should be used during your cycle. But they can effect gains and many don't like to use them. Arimidex or Aromasin or the best. You should always have one of those on hand incase of any problems. Your AI usage should go by your sensitivity to the test and eq and your actual goals. If you want to remain tight and toned you should use adex during. Reason being the test converts to estrogen and can cause fatty deposits and water retention and the AI will block some (almost all) of that. It will also help with other sides such as acne etc. Many love to just get as big as possible so opt not to use a AI during. Although I think you should have it on hand and if your unhappy with spots or water retention to just add it on. Have you researched gyno too? That is a serious possible side effect due to high levels of estrogen in your system.

Adex can be expensive but on the sponsor site it is very cheap so you should defo get it just incase. Too many people only get the gear and not the protection... happens so much.

Adex is mostly used when your on a large dose of test or orals such as dbol or adrol. Eq is half of test so your basically gonna be on about the equivalent of about 650mg of test. That is a fairly high dose so adex might be advisable. If you every use it then a tiny dose is best. 0.5mg per day would be a great dose for protection but not over the top. Because estrogen is important for optimal muscle growth so you need some.

Here are some other simple cycles that would be good for you. But again it all depends upon your age, goals etc. I should have really asked you your stats first thing. What is your bf? I imagine you just wanna bulk up more. 225 is quite alot so I imagine your quite big now. Add your complete stats and we can advise you on a good simple cycle for you. Something that is geared towards your exact goals.

Fuck I wrote alot... atleast you know for future ref though


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Last edited by Elvia1023; 08-27-2008 at 10:34 AM.
   
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08-27-2008, 10:26 AM

I just noticed you are my age so 225 is quite alot for that age. Do you have a high bf%? Or are you just quite big but toned. I say because I am taller and only weigh 210 but I am fairly big. 16 stone is alot for a 24 year old. Let us know and we can advise you better.


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08-27-2008, 10:57 AM

something elvia caught onto after the fact. the higher the body fat index the more the side effects; such as conversion to estrogen.


]
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08-27-2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaju
something elvia caught onto after the fact. the higher the body fat index the more the side effects; such as conversion to estrogen.
Yeah thats why I asked. I personally don't think anyone should be on gear if they are above 15% bf. If they are they need to create GREAT foundations (diet, training, recovery) and get to atleast 15% bf. Then you start looking at gear. Like I said 225 sounds alot for a 24 year old who hasn't really cycled before... unless your atleast 6ft 5 or so. Let us know all your stats including how long you have trained etc.


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Last edited by Elvia1023; 08-27-2008 at 12:05 PM.
   
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08-27-2008, 04:19 PM

Hey first off you guys rock thanks for the info!!

Im 225 11% BF at 6'0 tall 25 years old
Been training for 6 years non stop

Yeah first cycle was worthless... and the guy giving advice was too. To tell you the truth I gained 15lbs... and kept 10lbs ...body fat went up 2%. Done lots of research but still was a little unclear. He takes no protection just test and eq. But I don't even associate with him anymore. Anyways

My goal is too be 225 at 6% or so..... so wanted to bulk up a little then cut it up. Since 11% isn't high... that was the plan. Maybe a test and something else to shed the fat?? Winstrol??

Thought about Anavar with the test. Hear its supposed to help with water retention and help to look a little tighter

You mentioned another oral....such as decca or d-bol?? I know the more you take the higher the risk of estrogen problems. But definitaly want to make the best of the cycle.

I Understand HCG if I have shrinkage. I heard a many say to do it toward end of cycle to jump start own production??
Then some say 500iu every week so wasnt sure

I know all about gyno and definitaly dont want that. So the Ai should be taken from the begining and nolvadex 2 weeks after last shot with clomid.. dosages listed above?? I've also heard many say nolva from beggining so once again was unsure.

And yeah any other simple cycle examples always help.
Thanks again for your time and insight

Last edited by GETDIESEL; 08-27-2008 at 04:33 PM.
   
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08-27-2008, 09:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GETDIESEL
Hey first off you guys rock thanks for the info!!

Im 225 11% BF at 6'0 tall 25 years old
Been training for 6 years non stop

Yeah first cycle was worthless... and the guy giving advice was too. To tell you the truth I gained 15lbs... and kept 10lbs ...body fat went up 2%. Done lots of research but still was a little unclear. He takes no protection just test and eq. But I don't even associate with him anymore. Anyways

My goal is too be 225 at 6% or so..... so wanted to bulk up a little then cut it up. Since 11% isn't high... that was the plan. Maybe a test and something else to shed the fat?? Winstrol??

Thought about Anavar with the test. Hear its supposed to help with water retention and help to look a little tighter

You mentioned another oral....such as decca or d-bol?? I know the more you take the higher the risk of estrogen problems. But definitaly want to make the best of the cycle.

I Understand HCG if I have shrinkage. I heard a many say to do it toward end of cycle to jump start own production??
Then some say 500iu every week so wasnt sure

I know all about gyno and definitaly dont want that. So the Ai should be taken from the begining and nolvadex 2 weeks after last shot with clomid.. dosages listed above?? I've also heard many say nolva from beggining so once again was unsure.

And yeah any other simple cycle examples always help.
Thanks again for your time and insight
Now I know the above you sound good to go.

As this is more or less your first cycle you only need test but I would defo add in an oral. It all depends upon your exact goals. You add dbol if you wanna put on some serious bulk. I don't think you need that.

I personally love orals and find I gain best with them. So with test (best muscle builder around) you should either add other injectable such as eq, mast, primo, deca etc... or an oral such as avar, tbol, winny, primo, dbol etc.

As you are new to this I would personally keep it nice and simple. I would do test e or c with an oral. Thats all you need. For future ref you could look at cycles the way I do. Basically now all my cycles are gonna consist of 2 injectables and 1 oral, or maybe 1/2 injecables with 1 or 2 orals (ensuring 4 weeks gap in between different orals cos they can be liver toxic). So examples of possible cycles for me could be-

Test
Mast
Tbol

Test
Deca
Dbol

Test
Tren
Avar

Test
Dbol first 4 weeks
Winny last 4 weeks

etc etc

You should only use 2 compounds though. Just keep it simple. Look at the above when you are on maybe your 3rd or 4th cycle. There is no real need in taking anymore than 3 main compounds (excluding add ons)... although many do.

Before I say these I should mention there are 1001 ways to do it. Anyway for you I would do one of the following-

Test E or C at 500mg per week for 11 weeks
Turinabol at 40mg per day for 6 weeks

Test E or C at 500mg per week for 11 weeks
Anavar at 60mg per day for 7-8 weeks

Test E or C at 400-500mg per week for 12 weeks
Eq at 300-400mg per week for 12 weeks

Test E or C at 400-500mg per week for 12 weeks
Mast E at 300-400mg per week for 12 weeks

Test E or C at 400-500mg per week for 12 weeks
Deca at 300mg per week for 12 weeks

The usual protocol is to use test for a further week over the other injectable but it doesn't matter too much. If you decide to use deca or Eq you really need to be on them atleast 12 weeks. It is wise to taper down slightly in the final few weeks... so something like 500 to 350 to 200 to 50 (example for test taper).

Basically just keep it simple and use a good test at 500mg and just one addition. Your best looking at the ones I listed above. Your right to look at avar but it can be very expensvie. Tbol is cheaper. A simple explantion is tbol is dbol without the water weight. Avar is more for strength and hardness and won't put on size... but you have test for that. But the tbol will put on size but it will be quality gains. Whereas dbol will make you feel great but you might blimp up and alot of your gains will be water. I have just done a tbol only cycle to see what ithe compound was like and I was very impressed... it does take time to feel the full effects though. Dbol I found great but for your aims it is not really needed. Avar is a light oral and tbol is abit harsh and then dbol is very harsh.. adrol is the worst and just carries far too much water (still great though when I tried it!). The harshness is also interms of liver toxicity. Avar is fairly light but tbol and dbol are harsh. If you do them for 4-5 weeks you will be cool. It's when you go slightly above it becomes harsh. Just keep it fairly short (max of 6 weeks).

So yeah go with test and tbol or test and an injectbale such as mast, eq, primo etc.

Get arimidex for protection during.

You can take HCG for the start of PCT. But you would have to make sure you have about 3 weeks of nolva usage after your last inj of HCG. I would just take it during your cycle. 500IU every weeks is just so much easier cos they do shrink and it feels weird so I would rather just maintain as opposed to going tiny and then making them huge within a week or so. It is up2 you though. If you decide to take it at the end (I wouldn't) then your best starting around the time of your last test e inj. You could do 500-1000IU every few days maybe 3 or 4 times. Then start you PCT as normal... remember the HCG has an active life of about 5 days. Then you do your 3 weeks of clomid and 4 weeks of nolva. I done that approach last cycle. I done that 4 weeks in and then 8 and then just before the end... so having little periods of HCG usage. Like I said the weekly one is just easier and better imo.

I think that is everything covered. You sound like you are fairly planned out. Just don't do what most do and start your cycle without receiving all the things you need! Most people get lost with the HCG and the clomid etc. Like I said I use them when I need them (except clomid and nolva they are just a complete must) but they are all essential to have for all cycles. I am gonna wait to start my next cycle cos I need adex cos I will be doing test, mast and dbol. That is alot of water so it is not worth the risk of starting without good protection.

Goodluck with your cycle and if you need any other info just ask away and someone will be glad to help.


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Last edited by Elvia1023; 08-27-2008 at 09:42 PM.
   
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Thumbs up 08-27-2008, 11:10 PM

Hey seriously I appreciate your help. You REALLY cleared everything up. Its tough with all these guys putting incorrect info out there at the gym poisoning my mind.

I know sooo many people gearing up..... all bloated ....and when they come off the shrink way down... all emotional.....depressed and so on. (but I'm sure you see it too)I knew it was due to the high level of estrogen. and just wanted to do it right.

Well now I'm half ready have to get another postcard then I'll let you know how its going. Thanks again
   
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Lightbulb 08-28-2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GETDIESEL
Hey guys the most confusing thing for me is anti estrogens and AI when needed and how much. If you were 225lbs 6'0 to run say

500mg Test E weekly
300mg EQ weekly

For say 10 weeks

Then is nolvadex 20mg a day week 11-13
Clomid 100mg a day week 11 and 50mg a day week 12-13 Enough??


What about Arimidex?? HCG?? needed or no with only test and eq
What about other suggestions for someones 2nd cycle

First cycle consisting of 250 mg test week and thats it.

Thanks

Use an AI with the cycle like ARIMIDEX.
0.25MG-0.50MG should be about right.
   
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