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Question about liver issues with orals-
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Question about liver issues with orals- - 04-18-2013, 06:35 AM

So this is actually a few questions/ points I've been wanting to bring up.


1- I believe the whole "liver toxicity" issue is way over blown. I do not believe that orals are as dangerous as most people have come to believe they are.

2-what makes one hormone more dangerous than another? Why is it said that Anavar is safe and less harsh than lets say anadrol? It would seem to me that mg per mg they would all be the same no?
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04-18-2013, 09:51 AM

i know guys that are old school, experienced guys and i have seen them successfully run an all oral cycle for 8 weeks and get great gains. the problem comes from inexperienced users. if you run a 8 week Dbol cycle you have to make sure you literally pound the water daily and use a liver protectant of some kind. we all know its much easier to take a pill than it is to pin so inexperienced guys may be more inclined to just take orals and if they do for extended periods of time it can be problematic. while i agree that it is blown out of proportion at times i feel that it is necessary even if exaggerated to make known the dangers of orals over injectables.

as far as mg per mg there is no comparison between certain compounds. tren tabs and halo are freaking crazy strong and you can definitely feel the difference. i can easily tolerate 100mg ED of Var but try 100mg of Halo and i would be climbing the walls!!! not to be contrary just saying from my experience that there is certainly a difference in orals and while the mg per mg may apply for some it doesn't for all. again just my 2c. interesting topic. thanks for starting this! i am sure we will have many different answers


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04-18-2013, 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by vpiedu View Post
i know guys that are old school, experienced guys and i have seen them successfully run an all oral cycle for 8 weeks and get great gains. the problem comes from inexperienced users. if you run a 8 week Dbol cycle you have to make sure you literally pound the water daily and use a liver protectant of some kind. we all know its much easier to take a pill than it is to pin so inexperienced guys may be more inclined to just take orals and if they do for extended periods of time it can be problematic. while i agree that it is blown out of proportion at times i feel that it is necessary even if exaggerated to make known the dangers of orals over injectables.

as far as mg per mg there is no comparison between certain compounds. tren tabs and halo are freaking crazy strong and you can definitely feel the difference. i can easily tolerate 100mg ED of Var but try 100mg of Halo and i would be climbing the walls!!! not to be contrary just saying from my experience that there is certainly a difference in orals and while the mg per mg may apply for some it doesn't for all. again just my 2c. interesting topic. thanks for starting this! i am sure we will have many different answers


VP
I am am not referring to the strength of the compound but what I am talking about is the propensity for a given oral to raise liver enzyme values ( ALT/AST)

Again- the question being how does one purportedly effect the hepatic function of the body more than another. The liver can't tell the "strength" of a compound in regards to how well it binds to the AR or any other anabolic or androgenic properties. So this is why I believe all orals are the same when it comes to liver toxicity on mg per mg basis.
   
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04-18-2013, 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigmatic707 View Post
So this is actually a few questions/ points I've been wanting to bring up.


1- I believe the whole "liver toxicity" issue is way over blown. I do not believe that orals are as dangerous as most people have come to believe they are.

2-what makes one hormone more dangerous than another? Why is it said that Anavar is safe and less harsh than lets say anadrol? It would seem to me that mg per mg they would all be the same no?
i agree.
i was on steroids(dbol/drols n oils at the time)...vodka...and pain pills for years.(no more booze or pills...or cigs too) but i got blood wrk done and it was normal. NORMAL....not elevated...normal.!!



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04-18-2013, 12:49 PM

It all depends on your body. 10+ years ago when I was young and didn't have the Internet, I would eat dbol then get hammered drunk, meth, coke, or Xanax whatever I had. I'm still alive. Yes it was stupid and I do not recommend.

Now I can take 50mg dbol ed, and about wk 4 have bloods pulled. My values will be at least double. That's with taking supports and water.
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04-18-2013, 02:12 PM

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Originally Posted by LuKiFeR View Post
i agree.
i was on steroids(dbol/drols n oils at the time)...vodka...and pain pills for years.(no more booze or pills...or cigs too) but i got blood wrk done and it was normal. NORMAL....not elevated...normal.!!
That's great that you weren't showing any immediate damage but you shouldn't make it sound like there's no risk at all! That's dangerous and not true...Read Ford Fans post below yours!! Everybody is different. Plus, if you search you'll see that there are people out there that have had normal liver readings and it turns out they have a baseball size tumor!! For example, go over to Professional Muscle and read the recent thread by PMCCHRIS and look at the picture he posted of the fist sized tumor they took out of his liver...His blood work was normal!! Don't get me wrong, I believe everybody should have regular blood work done but understand that it's not fool proof.
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04-18-2013, 03:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Bio* View Post
That's great that you weren't showing any immediate damage but you shouldn't make it sound like there's no risk at all! That's dangerous and not true...Read Ford Fans post below yours!! Everybody is different. Plus, if you search you'll see that there are people out there that have had normal liver readings and it turns out they have a baseball size tumor!! For example, go over to Professional Muscle and read the recent thread by PMCCHRIS and look at the picture he posted of the fist sized tumor they took out of his liver...His blood work was normal!! Don't get me wrong, I believe everybody should have regular blood work done but understand that it's not fool proof.
I do understand that bloodworm can come back normal and there may still be issues, but I would just assume from a physiological perspective that the tumor had nothing if little to do with methylated hormones.

If some one has a baseball size tumor, there is something else going on, an underlying issue aside from the steroid use.
   
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04-18-2013, 05:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Enigmatic707 View Post
I do understand that bloodworm can come back normal and there may still be issues, but I would just assume from a physiological perspective that the tumor had nothing if little to do with methylated hormones.

If some one has a baseball size tumor, there is something else going on, an underlying issue aside from the steroid use.
Never make an absolute statement! Absolutes are very rare!!

Here's an excerpt from the PMCCHRIS thread...

"This year so far has been extremely physically rough on me, on 3/1/2013 I was hospitalized with extreme ab***inal pain. The week leading up I was having an insane level of discomfort, the day before I actually saw a GI specialist. The problem was completely dismissed as indigestion.

I collapsed from a level of pain I had never suffered from before, and there isn't alot I have not put my body through in my short years on this planet. I was admitted with a growth coming from my liver. Went through all the bells and whistles. Initial reports were a growth coming off of my liver the size of a grapefruit. Apparently it shifted in my ab***en and was displacing all my organs.

I spend a little over a week in the hospital, the tumor went back to its original place. I got the biopsy results back. It was an adenoma with a-typical cell patterns. Adenomas are growths caused by hormones. YES steroids NOT JUST GH CAUSE TUMORS. The A-typical cells are possible malignancies, malignant cancer cells.

On 3/2/13 I had my surgery. I stopped ALL anabolics and peptides when I found out, dropped down to 200mg of test. training got kicked down to soccer mom level as did my calorie intake. The growth apparently continued to grow at an alarming speed regardless.

They removed approximately 40% of my liver as well as a tumor the size of a volleyball. The tumor nearly doubled in size".


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04-18-2013, 06:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Bio* View Post
Never make an absolute statement! Absolutes are very rare!!

Here's an excerpt from the PMCCHRIS thread...

"This year so far has been extremely physically rough on me, on 3/1/2013 I was hospitalized with extreme ab***inal pain. The week leading up I was having an insane level of discomfort, the day before I actually saw a GI specialist. The problem was completely dismissed as indigestion.

I collapsed from a level of pain I had never suffered from before, and there isn't alot I have not put my body through in my short years on this planet. I was admitted with a growth coming from my liver. Went through all the bells and whistles. Initial reports were a growth coming off of my liver the size of a grapefruit. Apparently it shifted in my ab***en and was displacing all my organs.

I spend a little over a week in the hospital, the tumor went back to its original place. I got the biopsy results back. It was an adenoma with a-typical cell patterns. Adenomas are growths caused by hormones. YES steroids NOT JUST GH CAUSE TUMORS. The A-typical cells are possible malignancies, malignant cancer cells.

On 3/2/13 I had my surgery. I stopped ALL anabolics and peptides when I found out, dropped down to 200mg of test. training got kicked down to soccer mom level as did my calorie intake. The growth apparently continued to grow at an alarming speed regardless.

They removed approximately 40% of my liver as well as a tumor the size of a volleyball. The tumor nearly doubled in size".
The question here is METHYLATED hormones... Are you saying oral steroids are what caused his tumor?
   
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04-18-2013, 11:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigmatic707 View Post
The question here is METHYLATED hormones... Are you saying oral steroids are what caused his tumor?
not all orals are methylated, correct?


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04-18-2013, 11:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Enigmatic707 View Post
The question here is METHYLATED hormones... Are you saying oral steroids are what caused his tumor?
Well I think you mean 17alpha alkylated not methylated like methyl test etc. !7 aa's include dbol, drol, var , etc. I had alot of that
behavior in my youth ford fan mentioned.we would eat six or eight 25 mg methyl test tabs(30 bucks a thousand from the pharm) go out and drink and such . Never had problems back then but do know I don't tolerate orals as i did 25 yrs ago.
First indicator for me is when my appetite tanks about two weekks into dbol or drol run. If you can't eat you might as well forget using aas .They won't work on water and air. I do think it has been a bit over stated as far as risk. Remember though everyone tolerates compounds differently. I think it's a good idea to use liver support and don't add recreational stressers on top of orals. Get a panal
before cycle and after a post cycle hiatus to see whats happening.
T
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04-19-2013, 02:45 AM

I don't think they are any more dangerous than any nsaid, bp med, cholesterol med or the countless other things that aging people take multiples of each and every day.

It IS user dependent though. Like was said, check blood work, try not to stay elevated for too long and take breaks from orals. Shouldn't be a problem for most, but not ALL.

We all know a person or two who's elderly, has smoked for 70 years and never had cancer. Same thing here, some people's body can tolerate being a chimney or chemical factory and never miss a beat, some people it can kill. Most people are in between and should be cautious.

Find out what type of person you are and supplement accordingly.
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04-19-2013, 02:50 AM

Just like turbo said and add 17 alkaloids take two passes through the liver. Young liver is fresh.. add 10 years of toxins from cigs booze aas drugs , both otc and off the street drugs .discovered toxins in certain foods and things change.list can go on.add hereditary health issues for even more possible liver issues..
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04-19-2013, 07:28 AM

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Originally Posted by turbobusa View Post
Well I think you mean 17alpha alkylated not methylated like methyl test etc. !7 aa's include dbol, drol, var , etc. I had alot of that
behavior in my youth ford fan mentioned.we would eat six or eight 25 mg methyl test tabs(30 bucks a thousand from the pharm) go out and drink and such . Never had problems back then but do know I don't tolerate orals as i did 25 yrs ago.
First indicator for me is when my appetite tanks about two weekks into dbol or drol run. If you can't eat you might as well forget using aas .They won't work on water and air. I do think it has been a bit over stated as far as risk. Remember though everyone tolerates compounds differently. I think it's a good idea to use liver support and don't add recreational stressers on top of orals. Get a panal
before cycle and after a post cycle hiatus to see whats happening.
T
A 17 AA is a methylated hormone, the 17aa is the chemical location/attachment but it's still a methylation. And methyltestosterone is a 17 aa


Semantics really... The only orals I know of that are not methylated is Primo
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04-19-2013, 10:33 AM

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Originally Posted by Enigmatic707 View Post
The question here is METHYLATED hormones... Are you saying oral steroids are what caused his tumor?
I'm speaking to the effect of cumulative trauma. There are studies where anadrol, taken at REALLY high dosages, have caused liver tumors.

I too think that the "extreme" toxicity associated with orals is overstated...That said, the cycles of today's world versus the cycles of yesteryear are not the same...8,10,12 weeks then off...Now it's on year round and orals are being used for much longer periods by some. I'm just one to exercise caution. I love this sport and I've been intrigued by the culture and chemical side for 30 years (31 actually). I don't want people to be reckless with their health...Of course the definition for reckless seems to keep growing!

Interesting article related to liver toxicity...

http://livertox.nlm.nih.gov/AndrogenicSteroids.htm


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Last edited by *Bio*; 04-19-2013 at 10:42 AM.
   
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04-19-2013, 11:32 AM

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Originally Posted by Enigmatic707 View Post
A 17 AA is a methylated hormone, the 17aa is the chemical location/attachment but it's still a methylation. And methyltestosterone is a 17 aa


Semantics really... The only orals I know of that are not methylated is Primo
Look at the big brain on Enigmatic! You know old dogs can learn something here and there. I'm no chemist but in laymens terms
I did not know methylated and alkylated could c-exsist in same compound. I'll read up on it but thanks in advance big E.
I always like it when someone sets me straight and clarify's
things. Like to be accurate . I think Maxibolan back in the day was a non 17aa. Also was weak and useless for men. T




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04-19-2013, 01:26 PM

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Originally Posted by turbobusa View Post
Look at the big brain on Enigmatic! You know old dogs can learn something here and there. I'm no chemist but in laymens terms
I did not know methylated and alkylated could c-exsist in same compound. I'll read up on it but thanks in advance big E.
I always like it when someone sets me straight and clarify's
things. Like to be accurate . I think Maxibolan back in the day was a non 17aa. Also was weak and useless for men. T
Haha... No worries I actually had to look it up before I posted that LoL. It's been so long since I've read up on that-

My question remains though- for anyone who may have some insight on this.

Are all orals as toxic mg/mg or is the common presupposition of ones being more or less toxic than others true?
   
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04-19-2013, 01:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Enigmatic707 View Post
Semantics really... The only orals I know of that are not methylated is Primo
not hardly. its a valid question given the topic.


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not hardly. its a valid question given the topic.


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No, I was saying to Turbo that alkylated/ methylated is semantics, being that they both are the same thing. As in we were both right.
   
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04-19-2013, 03:49 PM

I always use Synthergine now so my liver lab work always comes back perfect.
   
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