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Getting LH and FSH back
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Getting LH and FSH back - 10-12-2013, 09:45 PM

Hello,

My LH and FSH levels came back very low and was wondering if you can bring these levels up while still on? Or do you need to come completely off to try and get them back?

What strategies have you guys done?

Thanks!
   
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10-12-2013, 09:52 PM

There's no point on cycle. You could run hCG which will do the same thing as LH or hMG which will do the same thing as LH and FSH
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10-12-2013, 10:10 PM

You are shut down. That's what shuts down.
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Getting LH and FSH back
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Getting LH and FSH back - 10-12-2013, 10:18 PM

Anytime you add androgens to your system lh production is the first thing to cease cause it your body's reaction noticing you don't need to stimulate the testeis because you have enough testosterone already in your system. When androgen levels drop lh is one of the first things to recover. It's the testies starting to fire again that takes longer. Once you stop administering exogenous testosterone and your levels drop. Your lh production will start again
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10-13-2013, 01:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knowalink View Post
Hello,

My LH and FSH levels came back very low and was wondering if you can bring these levels up while still on? Or do you need to come completely off to try and get them back?

What strategies have you guys done?

Thanks!
What exactly did u use and amount and for how long and how old are you?
   
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10-13-2013, 09:58 AM

Butthole is mostly correct about hcg /hmg. Fsh is the hormone that starts up follicles to become mature sperm.Thus follicle stimulation hormone.
Hcg will bring up T levels but does little for sperm count when compared with
fsh /lh which do also contribute to T levels. You need some time up to bring up natty levels.You can use hmg if you are trying to concieve.
As IB asked what is your age and cycling stats . That would be a big help to help you. Thx , T..




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10-13-2013, 11:42 AM

Stats:

I am 22, 230lbs, and around 12% bf, started AAS a year ago. I know I am young, but have been training seriously for 8 years before considering AAS.

My diet and training are good.

I have been basically on only test for a year non-stop now gradually progressing to 750mg/week and taking breaks at lower amounts e.g. 250-300mg/week (cycling periods higher test then periods of lower test).
Obviously this is the reason for my suppressed LH and FSH (full year of exogenous test).

The reason for the unconventional AAS use is because I was always skeptical on what to do...I always wanted to do a PCT sometime, but my peers always told me to never come off, which brings me to now asking you guys for help.

My labs were done for the first time a few weeks ago (obviously another mistake to wait that long, but live and learn), and everything else was ok besides the LH and FSH levels. (going to get labs done regularly from here on)

So now the question is, what strategy should I take to get these levels back?

Thanks for the help guys, no need for bashing, I can go to other forums for that, this is why I come to you guys.

Let me know if you guys need any further details!

Thanks,
Knowalink
   
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10-13-2013, 12:41 PM

Ok knowa if u want to "really" do pct which at your age and future wants of children id be goin off completely . In the interem u can use peptides, gh or even slin if you have the knowledge,
Your 22 so from now on do what knowalink wants to do not your peers , to be able to hit the gym till one foots in the grave.. thats my goal.. Read and Educate the mind its power.
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10-13-2013, 12:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Ironbuilt View Post
Ok knowa if u want to "really" do pct which at your age and future wants of children id be goin off completely . In the interem u can use peptides, gh or even slin if you have the knowledge,
Your 22 so from now on do what knowalink wants to do not your peers , to be able to hit the gym till one foots in the grave.. thats my goal.. Read and Educate the mind its power.
In my opinion using some hcg for a month or 2 before coming off to stimulate the testies again could really help recovery as well.
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10-13-2013, 05:21 PM

Not sure why a guy your age would not just cycle on and off with pct .
I think that is the way to go til at least well into your 30's .
So here is what I used to "normalize" things post cycle
Pergonal(hmg) eod . Hcg eod (small amts) this was for 2-12 3 weeks
then onto clomid for 150mg day for 1 week 100 for 1 week 50 for 1 week
25 for week 25 eod for week stop. .
Very heavy cycle ended early summer pct finished in the above listed weeks wife pregnant by winter. I was about 35 and had cycled on and off for years.
So the advice was go on and stay on at age 21? That calls for a golf club.
Good luck.. T




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10-14-2013, 03:30 PM

When I do take some time off, it's lengthy. I can't say exactly what will work best for anyone but the way I understand it, beneath all of this post-cycle misery and malaise is one problem: the hypothalamus is not releasing GnRH - which is what really needs to happen because that's what signals LH and FSH production. What you do to increase LH and FSH is sort of meaningless too because it's not the underlying problem. In fact, high levels of exogenous synthetic LH and FSH would actually suppress GnRH release (pulsation) because of the increase in testosterone production which takes you back to what caused the problem with the HPTA cycle in the first place. Just like you wouldn't take testosterone to increase testosterone production. Remember, it's been your use of exogenous high levels of testosterone and analogues that caused this problem in the hypothalamus in the first place. Make sense?

The sad fact is, is that it's low levels of testosterone that stimulate the hypothalamus to release GnRH! I know, that sucks right? That's why I always have said that traditional methods of so-called PCT are just useless. None of them address the underlying problem. There is just no way to jump start your hypothalamus like a broken-down car. But there are things that you can do that can normally increase GnRH release that have helped me feel better after coming off even long periods of use. You just have to do some research.

There are things like L-dopa and L-tyrosine that increase dopamine which help to increase GnRH production while taking something like Cabaser or Dostinex (cabergoline) to lower prolactin which is also normally high post-cycle and negatively affects GnRH and LH production (1)(see below). You should maintain size and function of your testicles during use of AAS with HCG beginning when you notice a decrease in size of testicles (but definitely not as a prevention of shrinkage). There is plenty of information on the proper dosing of HCG to maintain testicular size and weight (protocols generally range from 250-500iu every other day or 2-3 times per week). It's just my opinion, but I personally, continue after a cycle for a few weeks tapering off whether reducing the number of times per week or the iu's taken (for example 500, 250, 100iu's). Either seems to be fine. That's just my protocol. It's not post-cycle therapy but simple maintenance so that when the hypothalamus begins to function again, it has a perfect environment.

So that all your bases are covered, you can also use Aromasin (exemestane) to keep estrogen in check but I use it sparingly because to much (over 12.5mg per day) kills my sex drive. It sucks, but you really just have to wait, train as hard as you can, and wait some more. It will come back and boy does it feel great when it does. It's not a 6-week deal though... I always laugh when I see that. For the most part, I now think post-cycle therapy is bullshit. Post-cycle waiting is more like it...

Here's a link to that study I mentioned above:
(1)Prolactin regulation of gonadotropin-releasing hormone neurons to suppress luteinizing hormone secretion in mice. - ResearchGate




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10-14-2013, 07:16 PM

Don't you think running the serms for pct still help fight off possible gyno during the presence of higher estrogen to test ratio though when ceasing administering exogenous testosterone?
   
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10-14-2013, 08:04 PM

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Don't you think running the serms for pct still help fight off possible gyno during the presence of higher estrogen to test ratio though when ceasing administering exogenous testosterone?
Why? Have you begun producing estrogen? I'm kidding. Of course you haven't. It's almost entirely from aromatization of testosterone. That's why I suggested the use of a suicidal aromatase inhibitor. SERM's do not lower estrogen. None of them. AI's (far superior) bind either temporarily or more effectively, permanently to the aromatase enzyme (like Aromasin).
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10-14-2013, 08:36 PM

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Why? Have you begun producing estrogen? I'm kidding. Of course you haven't. It's almost entirely from aromatization of testosterone. That's why I suggested the use of a suicidal aromatase inhibitor. SERM's do not lower estrogen. None of them. AI's (far superior) bind either temporarily or more effectively, permanently to the aromatase enzyme (like Aromasin).
Right but a lot of us run an ai on cycle to keep estrogen in check but after you discontinue the administration of testosterone your T levels will drop faster than your E levels. An AI will stop a lot of aromarization but not stop already built up excess estrogen from binding to the mammary glands. Maybe i am over analyzing this and estrogen would drop pretty fast since there wouldn't be excess testosterone to automatize?
   
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10-14-2013, 08:56 PM

The main cause of shutdown is testicular atrophy.
   
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10-14-2013, 09:20 PM

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Right but a lot of us run an ai on cycle to keep estrogen in check but after you discontinue the administration of testosterone your T levels will drop faster than your E levels. An AI will stop a lot of aromarization but not stop already built up excess estrogen from binding to the mammary glands. Maybe i am over analyzing this and estrogen would drop pretty fast since there wouldn't be excess testosterone to automatize?
If you ran an AI on cycle, you wouldn't have any built up estrogen. Your estrogen levels would be fairly low, ideally. I'm not saying you can't run an SERM post cycle but I personally wouldn't. People that are highly sensitive to estro, can actually experience estrogenic effects from the SERM itself. Why add something hormonal to the mix when that's exactly what you're trying to normalize? Everyone is different though.

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The main cause of shutdown is testicular atrophy.
No.
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10-15-2013, 01:54 PM

As long as I taper off the HcG as the last of the drugs exit my system, I'm then ready to begin the arduous task of waiting for my body to come back online. It takes a while. While I wait though, I can make myself a LOT more comfortable (and my girl). You wouldn't think an AI and prolactin inhibitor with some amino acids could make such a difference. No protocol necessary. I would take small amounts of cabergoline and my aminos no matter what I did.

With Aromasin (exemestane), cabergoline, along with L-dopa and L-tyrosine for additional GnRH support until my body decides to increase GnRH, I can:

provide GnRH and LH support
reduce SHBG and increase free T
lower estrogen
lower prolactin
maintain healthy lipid profile

(see info and links below)

Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Aromasin) is a potent and selective irreversible aromatase inhibitor. To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were ran***ly assigned to 25 and 50 mg exemestane daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed (n = 10) using a 25-mg dose.

The 25- and 50-mg doses of daily exemestane had comparable effects in suppressing circulating estrogen concentrations, with 38 ± 24% (mean ± SD; P = 0.002 vs. baseline) and 32 ± 29% (P = 0.008) decreases in estradiol concentrations, 71 ± 12% (P < 0.0001) and 74 ± 12% (P < 0.0001) decreases in estrone concentrations, and 45 ± 27% (P = 0.004) and 51 ± 20% (P = 0.02)

There was an increase in circulating testosterone concentrations after both 25 mg (60 ± 58%; P = 0.001) and 50 mg (56 ± 48%; P = 0.003) exemestane. Androstenedione concentrations were increased as well after 25 mg (32 ± 36%; P = 0.004) and 50 mg (47 ± 59%; P = 0.052) exemestane, respectively (Fig. 1Go and Table 2Go).

SHBG concentrations were decreased by 21 ± 7% (P = 0.0003) and 19 ± 39% (P = 0.18) at 25 and 50 mg exemestane, respectively.

Free testosterone concentrations were increased by 117 ± 74% (P = 0.0001) and 154 ± 95% (P < 0.0001) at both doses, due to the decrease in SHBG and the increase in total testosterone.


Pharmacokinetics and dose finding of... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI
Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males
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10-29-2013, 07:26 PM

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The main cause of shutdown is testicular atrophy.
testicular atrophy is a consequence of shutdown, not a cause
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10-29-2013, 07:44 PM

I'm not referring to just physical atrophy. The testicles shrink when certain chemical signals do not stimulate them. Turning that gland back on is the most difficult and generally takes the most time. As said earlier LH and FSH bounce back quickly. The rest of the HPTA is more durable.
   
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10-29-2013, 07:45 PM

atrophied as in no longer functioning correctly because of a lack of use
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