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No Pct
Old
  (#1)
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No Pct - 04-07-2005, 12:35 PM

what would happen if you decided not to take anything
after your cycle...is this ever reccommeded?
   
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04-07-2005, 12:51 PM

You will probably get a more definitive answers from others here, but this is some of what I have read. You natural test levels will be extreamly low. Without help they could possibly never recover. I they did recover the process would be very slow. You would most likely loose all of your gains and more. If they did not recover you would need to be on hormone replacement therapy for the rest of your life. I do not know what type of impact it could have on your ability to have children.


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04-07-2005, 12:54 PM

You would lose a larger amount of your gains, you run the risk of creating too much estrogen which can lead to problems like breasts , you also make it harder for your body to get going again making natural test in some cases people have become sterial ,

I think that almost covers it and is what I learned from my research not experiance,
   
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04-07-2005, 01:02 PM

OK, Thanks....Part 2: too HCG or not to HCG?, that is the question.
Some think it is not useful after your cycle if you hadn't started it during your cycle
others disagree...with the idea that the more help the better.
I have my PCT kit...just waiting for the 2 weeks to end after the last test shot.

also, these HCG amps...I'm assuming I crack the top fill the pin with the sterile
water...which goes back into the amp, then back in the needle? does it need to shaken? and do these glass amps crack easily?
sorry too many questions...I know
   
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wolfyEVH
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04-07-2005, 01:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlift
what would happen if you decided not to take anything
after your cycle...is this ever reccommeded?

why would that thought even come into your head??? you would just completely waste your cycle.
   
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04-07-2005, 02:58 PM

The date when I am to begin my PCT happens to be the day I'm
flying out of town for business and I'm a little nervous about traveling
with pins HCG,Nolvadex, and Clomid.
And I'm getting a little getting sick of all this drug taking.
But now that I'm so far into it...I know I should finish it correctly.
so I guess I just hide it cleverly in my suitcase and hope for the best.
thanks

Cycle2 will be planned out better.
   
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tee
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04-07-2005, 05:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlift
The date when I am to begin my PCT happens to be the day I'm
flying out of town for business and I'm a little nervous about traveling
with pins HCG,Nolvadex, and Clomid.
And I'm getting a little getting sick of all this drug taking.
But now that I'm so far into it...I know I should finish it correctly.
so I guess I just hide it cleverly in my suitcase and hope for the best.
thanks

Cycle2 will be planned out better.
You shouldnt be taking HCG for your PCT. You should be done with that before you ever take clomid or nolvadex. You can get some empty gel caps, inject with a 25g pin your Nolva or clomid and put them in a vitamin bottle. Or you can get the tabs of clomid or nolvadex and put them in an aspirin bottle.
   
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04-07-2005, 05:40 PM

I really appreciate the advice...I've been getting a lot of conflicting data when doing research on other sites (and sometimes this one)
Especially the HCG debate...Whoa, and I thought getting a degree was tough.
   
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04-07-2005, 06:47 PM

DL, you have to understand that by not taking the steps after a cycle to ensure no side effects or losses in strength and size. You have exactly that side effects, loss in strength and size! Your job is to make sure you keep as much gains as possible so your efforts and time are not a waste. HCG, clomid, nolvadex, proviron, they are some great preventive maintenance tools. If you don't have them and don't use them then there is no point running a cycle. If your sick of taking so many drugs then stop taking steroids bro.
   
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04-07-2005, 06:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlift
I really appreciate the advice...I've been getting a lot of conflicting data when doing research on other sites (and sometimes this one)
Especially the HCG debate...Whoa, and I thought getting a degree was tough.
Can you provide links to anything that suggests HCG should be taken after a cycle?


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04-07-2005, 06:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by recess
You natural test levels will be extreamly low. Without help they could possibly never recover. If they did recover the process would be very slow. You would most likely loose all of your gains and more. If they did not recover you would need to be on hormone replacement therapy for the rest of your life. I do not know what type of impact it could have on your ability to have children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by max lift
You would lose a larger amount of your gains, you run the risk of creating too much estrogen which can lead to problems like breasts , you also make it harder for your body to get going again making natural test in some cases people have become sterile,
I think that almost covers it and is what I learned from my research not experiance,

I think they covered it.


Disclaimer: Anasci.org and DragonRider do not promote the use of anabolic steroids without a doctor's prescription. The information we share is for entertainment purposes only.

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04-08-2005, 03:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlift
OK, Thanks....Part 2: too HCG or not to HCG?, that is the question.
Some think it is not useful after your cycle if you hadn't started it during your cycle
others disagree...with the idea that the more help the better.
I have my PCT kit...just waiting for the 2 weeks to end after the last test shot.

also, these HCG amps...I'm assuming I crack the top fill the pin with the sterile
water...which goes back into the amp, then back in the needle? does it need to shaken? and do these glass amps crack easily?
sorry too many questions...I know
You inject the liquid solution into the powder, it mixes on it's own immediately. Whatever you don't shoot should be refridgerated (I keep it in the syringe with a new pin)

I never read anything negative about HCG PCT until I joined here so I'm curious why NOT to use HCG, but I don't know everything either and am open to suggestion and information. It seems to have worked for me, I didn't do HCG the 1st 2 cycles, but did the last 3.
   
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04-08-2005, 04:15 PM

i have read many in support of it during pct, i'll search and find it.

stop being a dick wolfy.


Disclaimer: TexasCreed does not endorse the use of Anabolic Steroids without a doctor's prescription. This is purely for entertainment and pretend purposes.
   
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04-09-2005, 11:41 AM

Heres an exhausting read on the Great HCG Debate


Date: 03/15/03 11:40 PM
Author: Phreezer
Subject: Post cycle therapy

Now, I don't want to get into ANOTHER big debate on HCG admistration, but of all the posts I've seen about it the one that sticks out in my mind the most, and offers the most credibility is by Hogg. From my own experience I've run HCG anywhere from 7 - 10 days out and had very good results. So I'm inclined not to believe some of the posts that say take HCG two weeks or ten days BEFORE your last shot. However, those guys that say to start ten days before your last shot, have obviously had good results doing it their way...SO the question thats been floating around the board lately...Who is Right? Two weeks before last shot? Ten days before Last shot? Day after your last shot? ten days after your last shot?

Apparently there is some kind of window here that allows for a somewhat larger error curve with HCG. Optimally you want to recover from testicular atrophy and have testosterone suppression end corresponding with the time that natural testosterone production comes back online. So from doing a great deal of studying on my own, and reading over the other guys posts, I start HCG administration the Day AFTER my last shot. (Ultimately I don't think you are going to be wrong if you wait a week) With the different opinions (that are adamant) there has to be a greater window for HCG administration than was once believed...

1,000IU's ED for Ten days STARTING the day after my last shot.

A lot of the timing with HCG has a great deal to do with what form of aas you are using..It would take too long to get into everything (you can easily do a search and find out) but with simple testosterone there are a lot of blood level calculators that can make the work a lot easier...

Since Test is pretty much test. I'm making a guess (a fairly educated guess) as to the time the test will clear and how long it will take to recover from testicular atrophy.

Now [Since your my size], I'm saying to run 1000IU's ed for ten days starting the day after your last shot.If this is your first time using HCG I would suggest 500Iu's ED for your first time...Once you get more experienced you'll know if 500IU's is enough for you, or if it doesn't really do much and then you can up your dosage to 1000IU's.

the reason I say to start off with 500IU's ED for first time us is because HCG can desensitise your Leydig cells,,,then you'll be on HRT full time for the rest of your life (Hello Viagra) There isn't really a reason to use more than necessary here. HCG is great at bringing the boys back to full size, but like anything else, too much can seriously harm you..
But you say "Phreezer, why 1000IU's, I see a lot of people say that they only do 500IU's?" Well, I've always done a 1000, and a 1000 works for me, So if it ain't broke, I don't need to fix it. Since your pretty much the same size as I am, I am recommending you do the same amount as me. Now, some guys do respond well to 500IU's..I don't know, I can only speak for myself and you may respond nicely to 500IU's ED and your boys may drop back down to their full size off of that amount...This is something only you can know, and something your going to have to find out on your own.

WRT to injection sites, HCG can be administered SubQ or IM, I always go subQ for the simple convenience of it. Hogg suggests that you go IM because of absorption time. (if your only getting 1000IU's per ML I think IM is the way to go) So if you choose to go IM then Delts, glutes and quads should be just fine for your injections. You'll be using a slin pin (most likely) so there's no real pain involved....If you choose to go subQ a good place is just to pinch a little bit of fat around your navel and inject there (you'll feel a slightly warm sensation) love handles are also a good place (Just like if you were shooting insulin)..

The time of day doesn't really matter, I prefer to keep a consistent injection schedule. Say I do my first shot in the am, in all likely hood I will continue all my shots in the am..and the same with pm shots. However if you miss a shot in the morning it's perfectly fine to do your next shot in the evening, it's what ever you decide.

I've done Clomid on the same day I've started HCG. I've started clomid when I finished HCG. If I don't do clomid on the same day I start HCG I'll do Nolvadex..Although I would have to think arimidex may be better than Nolvadex after learning that arimidex increases IGF-1 levels. But I always keep Nolvadex on hand because I'm old school and I'm scared of Gyno. And Nolvadex has worked for me in the past to stop gyno...Again, if it ain't broke, don't fuck with it!

HCG: 1000IU's Day After last AAS shot. Run for Ten days with Nolvadex @ 20mg ED throughout, if itchy or painful nipps start to appear try uping that dosage to 40mg ED or all they way up to 80mg ED.

Now I'm an old school clomid administrator also....If it ain't broke, (you allready know the second part of that) So I start high and taper off. A good time to take Clomid as at bed time.. this helps avoid a lot of the PMS feeling.. .you'll be asleep when these emotions peek...(If your pron to this that is... a lot of people take clomid and never experience any of the mood swings and wide range of emotions associated with clomid)

150mg Clomid day (Only)

day 2-8 100mg ED

day 9-16 50mg ED -

day 17-24 50mg EOD...

HCG 1000IU'S ED for ten days, 20mg Nolvadex ED along with the HCG, The day after my last HCG shot I start clomid therapy. This is just over a month long, so you should be able to start another cycle within 5-6 weeks after finishing your last. [assuming everything is back on line] If your doing longer cycles, you may need to administer clomid for another 10-21 days.

Phreezer
   
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04-09-2005, 12:32 PM

i think that is the one i saw. good read.


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tee
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04-09-2005, 05:36 PM

Another HCG article explaining why NOT to take it during PCT. Of course, studies are like assholes, everyone has one

Using HCG
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid, but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).
Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.
HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.
The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.
From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:
1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.
Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.
Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.

Last edited by tee; 04-09-2005 at 05:39 PM.
   
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