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A Thought on Esters
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A Thought on Esters - 03-14-2018, 11:41 AM

Since I've joined this forum I just wanted to share some ran*** thoughts that will hopefully spark THOUGHT. Everyone reads these forums and thinks there is a straight forward black and white answer and the fact of the matter is...THERE ISNT. So I want to start posting these kinds of threads about some ran*** thoughts for people to consider.

This one is on esters. Traditionally, everyone uses longer esters in the offseason and shorter esters during prep mainly to manage extracellular fluid retention (longer esters possess a greater potential to hold more fluid...reread that...POSSESS A GREATER POTENTIAL, not WILL ALWAYS...) What I mean by this is every ester is going to be metabolized within our bodies differently and therefore will effect everyone differently on a multitude of levels.

Longer esters generally bind much harder to the AR and therefore possess a greater growth potential where as shorter esters generally do not bind as hard to the AR.

Using this logic, wouldnt it make sense to use long esters year round? I feel the answer is, most of the time, YES! As we will have a greater anabolic effect and therefore can accelerate the growing process which in turn will expend more calories which IN TURN WILL LEAD TO A BIGGER LEANER PHYSIQUE LONG TERM. This means even during contest prep, I would prefer LONGER esters over SHORTER esters AS LONG AS THE INDIVIDUAL DOESNT HOLD EXTRA-CELLULAR FLUID FROM THAT LONG ESTER.

This is just a ran*** though on long VS short esters and some considerations to make. Everyone will metabolize these differently and therefore will need to make the final decision based off their genetic response. DONT FOLLOW THE CROWD. Find what works for your body and then make an assessment and decision.

...this isnt even getting into the OTHER variations of compounds
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03-14-2018, 11:58 AM

Great thread topic FLUX! The nuts and bolts of why we really grow has always been vary interesting.


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03-14-2018, 01:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Concreteguy View Post
Great thread topic FLUX! The nuts and bolts of why we really grow has always been vary interesting.
Thanks! I plan on posting a lot along these lines

When you really learn the pharmacodynamics of these compounds, you really come to find that metabolism of them is just as important as how they are naturally processed through our bodies
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03-14-2018, 02:24 PM

Personally I'm a short ester guy. Short esters have been shown to yield a higher peak plasma concentration than long esters. But you bring up valid points that I wouldn't argue with other than the fact of where I'm at in regards to my age, goals, etc.

I agree as you as you stated...I do believe that long esters are more anabolic than short esters. If a steroid hangs out in your body for a longer amount of time, and helps you retain more nitrogen, then its overall anabolic effect would be greater naturally.

But Testosterone ester length can influence suppression of the gonadal axis, effects on anabolic parameters, and lipid metabolism. Also long esters have been shown to have an increased conversion to estrogen. More estrogen also means more hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis suppression, because of the bodys negative feedback loop.

But this can be a good thing and why a long ester is more conducive to gains. Aromatization to estrogen can actually increase GH and IGF-1 levels.....so now you are covering all of your bases.

But then it's a double edged sword as some/most then have to result to an AI if levels get too high.

This is mainly why I stick with shorter esters. I'm a low dose guy anyway. 100mg a week of TRT most of the time. When I blast...it's usually no more than 250-300mg of test for about 8 weeks. Plus since I pin ed....my levels stay constant. Not saying you can't do that with longer esters....but you will have slightly more "peaks and troughs" with it unless you are actually pinning frequently which is a reason why most choose a long ester in the first place...you don't have to pin as much.

Now since I'm on TRT...I'm not worried about suppression. But the quicker I can get in and get out...the better my blood work seems to look in regards to lipids, hemoglobin, and hematocrit levels. And I never have to use an AI.

But this is just my opinion in the matter. Again it comes down to individual goals and what people are looking for.

Personally ...I'm a sadistic person who likes pinning ed....even if it is in small amounts.
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03-14-2018, 02:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-FLUX View Post
Thanks! I plan on posting a lot along these lines

When you really learn the pharmacodynamics of these compounds, you really come to find that metabolism of them is just as important as how they are naturally processed through our bodies
And I think this is a great idea. A lot of people go into this without researching the "whys" of how it all works. Our bodies are so efficient at what they are designed to do.

Anytime we can "spark" some intelligent discussion on these types of things....everyone learns. I'm an older guy and still learning everyday!
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03-14-2018, 02:52 PM

Couldnt agree more rmtt!

We should all be trying to learn everyday because lets be honest...theres always someone SMARTER...I wanna talk to THAT guy!

Love the open minds and how you answered your post because age and goals make a HUGE difference as well!
   
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03-14-2018, 03:48 PM

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Couldnt agree more rmtt!

We should all be trying to learn everyday because lets be honest...theres always someone SMARTER...I wanna talk to THAT guy!

Love the open minds and how you answered your post because age and goals make a HUGE difference as well!
Thanks....in all honesty.....I'm thinking you are "That" guy you mentioned above.

I'm all in for this and looking forward to your posts.

I will warn you though that I'm typically considered the "conservative" guy at most boards I visit.

Not just because of my age, but I want people to be able to enjoy this lifestyle responsibly.....and not ruin their health later.

I realized early on that I had mediocre genetics....and upping the dose wasn't a solution I was willing to take as the returns would not outweigh the potential risks.

I'm the guy who will get blood work done in the middle of my "blast" as I want to see what's going on at the worst possible time.

It's one reason I don't touch tren anymore!

But I'm excited to learn from your experience my friend!!

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03-14-2018, 03:54 PM

Thank you G-FLUX waiting for more
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03-14-2018, 04:52 PM

So moral of the story, pin sust and get the best of everything
   
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03-14-2018, 06:07 PM

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Thanks....in all honesty.....I'm thinking you are "That" guy you mentioned above.


I'm the guy who will get blood work done in the middle of my "blast" as I want to see what's going on at the worst possible time.

It's one reason I don't touch tren anymore!

But I'm excited to learn from your experience my friend!!

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G-FLUX has quit an impressive resume to say the least. As the forum is growing were picking up true quality. I really like the way were all going at the moment.
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03-14-2018, 08:21 PM

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Originally Posted by rmtt View Post
Thanks....in all honesty.....I'm thinking you are "That" guy you mentioned above.

I'm all in for this and looking forward to your posts.

I will warn you though that I'm typically considered the "conservative" guy at most boards I visit.

Not just because of my age, but I want people to be able to enjoy this lifestyle responsibly.....and not ruin their health later.

I realized early on that I had mediocre genetics....and upping the dose wasn't a solution I was willing to take as the returns would not outweigh the potential risks.

I'm the guy who will get blood work done in the middle of my "blast" as I want to see what's going on at the worst possible time.

It's one reason I don't touch tren anymore!

But I'm excited to learn from your experience my friend!!

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HA! Thats a tremendous compliment so thank you but I am far from that guy. I've simply spent years upon years and tens of thousands of dollars learning from people SMARTER than myself, both in our field (top "gurus", pros throughout every era, etc.) and out (mechanics, pharmacology, doctors, therapists, compounding pharmacy specialists, etc.)

If you have anything specific, please feel free to PM me a topic and I'd love to cover it on a thread!

Ahh we'll get along great then! Bloodwork, health supplementation, and longevity are as important to me as maximizing anabolism and lipolysis! Although the sport is inherently "unhealthy"...there is a DAMN lot we can do to "fortify" our bodies and live this lifestyle as healthy as we potentially can!
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03-14-2018, 08:22 PM

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Thank you G-FLUX waiting for more
Your very welcome!
   
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03-14-2018, 08:22 PM

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So moral of the story, pin sust and get the best of everything
Don't forget adding in the DNP
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03-14-2018, 08:23 PM

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G-FLUX has quit an impressive resume to say the least. As the forum is growing were picking up true quality. I really like the way were all going at the moment.
I'm just honored to be allowed to post on these boards so thank you!
   
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03-15-2018, 12:46 PM

I stopped using short esters a long time ago. The extra pinning isn’t worth it in my opinion. I never believed the theory of short easters holding less water either. I see people using test suspension and turn into water buffalos in a few days. Test prop leaves warm, red, and swollen spots where injected. Last thing I want when I’m super lean pre contest is lumps where striations should be. Water retention is all about estrogen control. With drugs like arimidex, aromasin and letro, there’s no reason at all to do short esters for the sake of water retention. In the case of trenbolone, the first couple times you should use the short ester acetate so you can feel the side effects at any given dose and figure out what you can handle. If the sides get too much, stop pinning and the drug and it’s side effects will clear in a few days. Once you know how much tren you can handle, I would go with the enanthate ester. No reason to build up extra scar tissue for short esters. Not only are long esters better for scar tissue, they are more economical as well.
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03-15-2018, 12:59 PM

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I'm just honored to be allowed to post on these boards so thank you!
We need to talk about the DNP and sus? For the life of me I don't know where that's going.

One more thing. I have always pinned long ester gear every day. Especially Tren E. I feel like its twice as strong doing this. Is it totally in my head or can this bring anything to the table?


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03-15-2018, 01:20 PM

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We need to talk about the DNP and sus? For the life of me I don't know where that's going.

One more thing. I have always pinned long ester gear every day. Especially Tren E. I feel like its twice as strong doing this. Is it totally in my head or can this bring anything to the table?
HAHA I was playing off his joke

Actually no its not in your head. Thats exactly how I do it. If we're looking at keeping OPTIMAL stable blood levels than taking something that lasts an extended period of time and microdosing everyday ensures a very steady supply of hormones without any peaks or valleys...I've found it to be extremely easier on the bloods as well
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03-15-2018, 04:09 PM

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I stopped using short esters a long time ago. The extra pinning isn’t worth it in my opinion. I never believed the theory of short easters holding less water either. I see people using test suspension and turn into water buffalos in a few days. Test prop leaves warm, red, and swollen spots where injected. Last thing I want when I’m super lean pre contest is lumps where striations should be. Water retention is all about estrogen control. With drugs like arimidex, aromasin and letro, there’s no reason at all to do short esters for the sake of water retention. In the case of trenbolone, the first couple times you should use the short ester acetate so you can feel the side effects at any given dose and figure out what you can handle. If the sides get too much, stop pinning and the drug and it’s side effects will clear in a few days. Once you know how much tren you can handle, I would go with the enanthate ester. No reason to build up extra scar tissue for short esters. Not only are long esters better for scar tissue, they are more economical as well.
All valid points. I just find that most AI's can come with their own sides that you have to deal with and can be hard to (dial) in sometimes. I don't believe esters affect water retention either....it all comes down to how you manage your blood level stability and what doses you are running.

At the doses I use, aromatization is typically not an issue.

But ultimately it comes down to what your goals are. I'm 44 years old and know I'm not going to be adding a huge amount of mass.

Plus I'm only 5'6" and at 200lbs.....I'm pretty content with the way I look.

But I agree with you as far as value and other points. If it was 20 years ago and I wanted to try and get as massive as I could....I would be using long esters and a different protocol.

As for scar tissue....all my shots are done with slin pins. On trt and blasts....I'm using a 30ga needle that barely leaves a mark.

And if you stay lean.....you can hit a lot of different areas with smaller pins.

Also on a side note....there are ways of managing estrogen if needed when you raise your test dose other than traditional AI's.

I'm finding that Primo is a great tool for helping keep those levels in check when upping the dose slightly.

That or Masteron works nicely.....but just make sure you aren't DHT sensitive beforehand if you've never tried them.

But pinning any ester as frequently as possible has tested out in my case to give comparable total test numbers, but with higer free test numbers with slightly lower total doseage than pinning 2x a week.



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03-15-2018, 11:50 PM

I tend to stick to longer esters as they are generally more anabolic over time. For certain drugs I do prefer the shorter ester though. Tren is a good example and I often experience more side effects with tren e compared to a. I am also a fan of regular injections for long and short esters.
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03-16-2018, 01:08 AM

I have always found it very interesting the difference in effect each ester can have for the same steroid. You would think they would give the same results but the ester can almost change the way your body reacts to the steroid itself. I can get different results from deca to npp and tren e to tren a. I like to use a mix of esters in each cycle and enjoy using blends such as sust.
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