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CG: 100IU+ Insulin Theory
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CG: 100IU+ Insulin Theory - 03-28-2018, 02:41 PM

In the Boston/Nick Thread, CG posted the following and I thought it warrants another thread as I have some insights I feel some people would benefit from.

"How many of you guys picked up on the 100iu Humalog upon returning from the gym? I have already mentioned this and it can be found in my previous post records. Alex Agzerion, who was my prep coach at the time told me about a huge Pro BBer in Cali that did the same exact thing. Walking in the door after training he would pin 100iu fast acting Humalog and proceed to drink three frozen blocks of OJ after they melted. This guy didn't take in any protein, EAA's, bcaa, whey.........nothing but OJ and then a pizza. Now I'm hearing it again. About a relatively smaller guy pounding on the flesh in a very short amount of time. I don't think they were talking about him doing anything other than carbs to offset as well?

I may be really diving off into the deep end but here we go.
Dan Duchaine spoke of a secondary channel steroids would take to enter cells at a gross saturation point, three grams comes to mind. Could there be a point that insulin REALLY starts working on a turbo charged level? All kidding aside, these pros are taking 100's of iu's of slin a day. But I guess the question is whats happening with such a over load? Does it shock and stretch the cells? Does the "shock and stretch" some how trip the cells into forming satalight cells to compensate for needing more room?

I don't want to start a bunch of talk about normal guys like us doing mad amounts of insulin. But I believe with zero doubt in my mind theres something going on at (X amounts insulin = cell synergy.

I've been meaning to bring this up but as you know it's been a little radio active lately. It also seams like what ever the hell I have to say about insulin is challenged across the board. That's fine with me and I should be challenged to prove my points. I just figured with all the low dosing talk and how "EVIL" insulin is when I start talking about doing HUGE amounts at one time this would set into motion the red fag and trip hazard crews..............."


Ok so thats what was said, and before we go any further (and I'm sure you would agree CG) that this is ALL taking into consideration a few things.
1. This shit isnt healthy (obviously) but is talking about PURE muscle tissue growth
2. There is no REAL science to back up anything that we are stating, only evidence from people that have tried it and seen the results
3. This is NOT something you start off at or something everyone needs...the fact of the matter is EVERTYHING NEEDS TO BE IN LINE BEFORE YOU CAN ATTEMPT THIS...you need to already be eating the crazy high amount of calories, taking in a higher anabolic intake, taking in a considerable amount of GH, etc.

OK SO with everything out in the open I wanted to share my personal experiences from learning directly from a close personal friend and "guinea pig" of Dan Duchaines. Essentially CG, you are onto the right idea. In terms of Dan Duchaine's Theory of post AR mediated growth, growth begins occurring through a new pathway after the 2-3g of total anabolics/androgenics range is reached (person dependent.) This same theory holds somewhat true with insulin and growth hormone. When you look at the pharmacology of these drugs, there is never going to be direct evidence supporting this but what was theorized to me was the cross-combination of AR saturation leading to AR up-regulation combined with supraphsyiological levels of testosterone, high estrogen, IGF1, etc actually causes an increase in our muscle cell's nuclei. We know muscle cells are multi-nucleic and that we can increase the number of nuclei through progressive overload in the gym, hyperemia, muscle damage, and pharmacology. So essentially if your training is TRULY progressive and you are TRULY putting yourself in an optimal growth environment WITH the proper nutrients to fuel anabolism and THEN add the insane pharmacology of Dan's theories, you essentially turn into a muscle building machine. I truly believe that this theory of extremely excessive anabolics/gh/insulin all work in conjunction like they typically would...but at such an excessive dosage work beyond the androgen receptor itself, beyond the muscle cell itself, so much so that it causes our bodies to adapt and create not only NEW muscle cells but MORE NUCLEI.

Again this is all theory and isnt meant to do anything other than spark discussion!
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03-28-2018, 02:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by G-FLUX View Post
In the Boston/Nick Thread, CG posted the following and I thought it warrants another thread as I have some insights I feel some people would benefit from.

"How many of you guys picked up on the 100iu Humalog upon returning from the gym? I have already mentioned this and it can be found in my previous post records. Alex Agzerion, who was my prep coach at the time told me about a huge Pro BBer in Cali that did the same exact thing. Walking in the door after training he would pin 100iu fast acting Humalog and proceed to drink three frozen blocks of OJ after they melted. This guy didn't take in any protein, EAA's, bcaa, whey.........nothing but OJ and then a pizza. Now I'm hearing it again. About a relatively smaller guy pounding on the flesh in a very short amount of time. I don't think they were talking about him doing anything other than carbs to offset as well?

I may be really diving off into the deep end but here we go.
Dan Duchaine spoke of a secondary channel steroids would take to enter cells at a gross saturation point, three grams comes to mind. Could there be a point that insulin REALLY starts working on a turbo charged level? All kidding aside, these pros are taking 100's of iu's of slin a day. But I guess the question is whats happening with such a over load? Does it shock and stretch the cells? Does the "shock and stretch" some how trip the cells into forming satalight cells to compensate for needing more room?

I don't want to start a bunch of talk about normal guys like us doing mad amounts of insulin. But I believe with zero doubt in my mind theres something going on at (X amounts insulin = cell synergy.

I've been meaning to bring this up but as you know it's been a little radio active lately. It also seams like what ever the hell I have to say about insulin is challenged across the board. That's fine with me and I should be challenged to prove my points. I just figured with all the low dosing talk and how "EVIL" insulin is when I start talking about doing HUGE amounts at one time this would set into motion the red fag and trip hazard crews..............."


Ok so thats what was said, and before we go any further (and I'm sure you would agree CG) that this is ALL taking into consideration a few things.
1. This shit isnt healthy (obviously) but is talking about PURE muscle tissue growth
2. There is no REAL science to back up anything that we are stating, only evidence from people that have tried it and seen the results
3. This is NOT something you start off at or something everyone needs...the fact of the matter is EVERTYHING NEEDS TO BE IN LINE BEFORE YOU CAN ATTEMPT THIS...you need to already be eating the crazy high amount of calories, taking in a higher anabolic intake, taking in a considerable amount of GH, etc.

OK SO with everything out in the open I wanted to share my personal experiences from learning directly from a close personal friend and "guinea pig" of Dan Duchaines. Essentially CG, you are onto the right idea. In terms of Dan Duchaine's Theory of post AR mediated growth, growth begins occurring through a new pathway after the 2-3g of total anabolics/androgenics range is reached (person dependent.) This same theory holds somewhat true with insulin and growth hormone. When you look at the pharmacology of these drugs, there is never going to be direct evidence supporting this but what was theorized to me was the cross-combination of AR saturation leading to AR up-regulation combined with supraphsyiological levels of testosterone, high estrogen, IGF1, etc actually causes an increase in our muscle cell's nuclei. We know muscle cells are multi-nucleic and that we can increase the number of nuclei through progressive overload in the gym, hyperemia, muscle damage, and pharmacology. So essentially if your training is TRULY progressive and you are TRULY putting yourself in an optimal growth environment WITH the proper nutrients to fuel anabolism and THEN add the insane pharmacology of Dan's theories, you essentially turn into a muscle building machine. I truly believe that this theory of extremely excessive anabolics/gh/insulin all work in conjunction like they typically would...but at such an excessive dosage work beyond the androgen receptor itself, beyond the muscle cell itself, so much so that it causes our bodies to adapt and create not only NEW muscle cells but MORE NUCLEI.

Again this is all theory and isnt meant to do anything other than spark discussion!
I headd theres a ceiling dosage as far as insulin goes and resistance. On the other side i also beleive that the more muscle you have the more cells you got and more insulin/peptides/aas/carbs you need. Also heard sarcev in anger on a video speak about someone take 5000g or carbs in a day and i doubt any 15iu like he claimed would drive almost 5 kilos of carbs into cells. Ill research it but it might be true.

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03-29-2018, 07:45 AM

G-FLUX, wonderful to have you bringing this to light friend. Funny, I posted that days ago and thought it just bounced off the forum walls and hit the ground.

So many questions and so few to answer them....
   
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03-29-2018, 09:55 AM

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Originally Posted by Concreteguy View Post
G-FLUX, wonderful to have you bringing this to light friend. Funny, I posted that days ago and thought it just bounced off the forum walls and hit the ground.

So many questions and so few to answer them....
I'm just happy you brought it up! Haha, I sometimes dont know when I should speak up or keep my mouth shut so I toe the line.

There are so many unanswered questions and thats what makes this so intriguing to me! Finding out WHY. I'm actually planning on bringing up this topic with a friend that I consider beyond me educationally (compound pharmacist who's father was a bodybuilder in the 80's-90's and worked with everyone) and Im planning on coming back with bullet points for you guys IF there is anything noteworthy
   
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Can you even imagine how interesting it *could* be having guys shoot from the hip with idea's and thoughts with no worries of peer retribution? The problem is, and I'll just use this as an example. When I posted this Elvia jumped in with a post almost right away about how bad insulin can be and the dangers and the big amounts..........pretty much crushing what could have been conversation about (the real question). "Whats happening when you take huge amounts of insulin at one time? ". We have all heard a dozen times over about the general consensus regarding insulin. What the hell is wrong with a discussion about possibilities? Speculating on what could be happening?

I love questions and ideas that are out of the box. For me that's what keeps the lights on.
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03-29-2018, 11:13 AM

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Originally Posted by Concreteguy View Post
Can you even imagine how interesting it *could* be having guys shoot from the hip with idea's and thoughts with no worries of peer retribution? The problem is, and I'll just use this as an example. When I posted this Elvia jumped in with a post almost right away about how bad insulin can be and the dangers and the big amounts..........pretty much crushing what could have been conversation about (the real question). "Whats happening when you take huge amounts of insulin at one time? ". We have all heard a dozen times over about the general consensus regarding insulin. What the hell is wrong with a discussion about possibilities? Speculating on what could be happening?

I love questions and ideas that are out of the box. For me that's what keeps the lights on.
I couldnt agree more! I just feel some people forget that it comes down to the individual, their personal goals, their personal lifestyle, and what makes them happy. I know Elvia knows this but I think his approach and posts are AMAZING for the general population of people that need to remember more is not always better...but again there is no way to tell inflection on a forum so I'm sure he didnt mean anything bad by it.

Either way thats why I'm glad to be here! Because I generally have to pay for these kinds of discussions haha...and I'm very similar in the sense that I love experimenting and learning and all that good shit!

So with the spirit of KNOWLEDGE in mind, does anyone else have any theories about using these kind of massive amounts of insulin in a bolus? Its very similar to a popular GH bolus method
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03-29-2018, 12:27 PM

"popular GH bolus method" That's a new thread but one I can't wait to read..........
   
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03-29-2018, 12:30 PM

BTW: I would never knock Elvia. He's a good guy with only good intentions. But he also knows I know all he aired out about his feelings on insulin. I respect that. But really just wanted to discuss the question I posed. That's all.
   
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03-29-2018, 02:48 PM

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"popular GH bolus method" That's a new thread but one I can't wait to read..........
All in time

Especially with GH theres so many ways to use it but really only 1 for maximum lipolysis and 1 for maximum growth...with dozens of variations in between

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BTW: I would never knock Elvia. He's a good guy with only good intentions. But he also knows I know all he aired out about his feelings on insulin. I respect that. But really just wanted to discuss the question I posed. That's all.
Yep its all good and he's a good dude!
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03-29-2018, 07:18 PM

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All in time

Especially with GH theres so many ways to use it but really only 1 for maximum lipolysis and 1 for maximum growth...with dozens of variations in between



Yep its all good and he's a good dude!
I'll be waiting on this one.
   
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03-29-2018, 09:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concreteguy View Post
Can you even imagine how interesting it *could* be having guys shoot from the hip with idea's and thoughts with no worries of peer retribution? The problem is, and I'll just use this as an example. When I posted this Elvia jumped in with a post almost right away about how bad insulin can be and the dangers and the big amounts..........pretty much crushing what could have been conversation about (the real question). "Whats happening when you take huge amounts of insulin at one time? ". We have all heard a dozen times over about the general consensus regarding insulin. What the hell is wrong with a discussion about possibilities? Speculating on what could be happening?

I love questions and ideas that are out of the box. For me that's what keeps the lights on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-FLUX View Post
I couldnt agree more! I just feel some people forget that it comes down to the individual, their personal goals, their personal lifestyle, and what makes them happy. I know Elvia knows this but I think his approach and posts are AMAZING for the general population of people that need to remember more is not always better...but again there is no way to tell inflection on a forum so I'm sure he didnt mean anything bad by it.

Either way thats why I'm glad to be here! Because I generally have to pay for these kinds of discussions haha...and I'm very similar in the sense that I love experimenting and learning and all that good shit!

So with the spirit of KNOWLEDGE in mind, does anyone else have any theories about using these kind of massive amounts of insulin in a bolus? Its very similar to a popular GH bolus method
G FLUX I think you totally have me wrong. I am one who constantly posts what many of the big guys are doing and I get flamed for it. It got to the point I was accused for bullshitting by a certain person on promuscle because I used to get felt up of the guys who suddenly forget what they done in the past. It's espescially annoying getting told by a guy he does x amount in private then on forum you only need low doses etc. That is a common theme on promuscle these days because it's not fashionable to "abuse" gear. I also love these type of discussions.

I regularly talk about guys using 100iu plus slin and ridiculous amount of gear. My posts are not in anyway suited to the general population. Perhaps you have just read some of my recent posts about being on standard cycles and being sensible. I am sensible in many ways on my self as I don't need to use anymore for my goals. It is also very true though as too many guys reply upon drugs and don't have the basics covered. Fact is most on here have no place to be going anywhere near 100-200iu slin per day including me.

I have experimented with high dosed slin in the sense of 20iu pre and post workout. Sure 40iu is not a lot per day but 20iu humalog is definitely not low. So I have some personal knowledge of higher doses of humalog. I have used lantus and humulin-r as well. I know guys who inject humalog with every single meal they eat so come across these sort of things.

So my post was not stopping conversation. I was merely stating I think 100iu humalog in 1 shot is generally stupid. It doesn't mean it won't work or has merit. I also stated using 100iu over the course of the day would be much better. I just think 100iu humalog in 1 shot is just people going a bit crazy. Now 20iu humalog 5 times per day would be different for someone wanting to become a freak. The same for 100iu+ of lantus per day.

I try to think out of the box all the time but again 100iu humalog in 1 shot to me is a bit silly. But everyone on here could have posted after me they disagreed and why. I would never crush a conversation merely post my opinion and why. You should have simply quoted me and disagreed. I wouldn't take offence as it's your opinion and we learn most through debate. I am not stating 100iu humalog in 1 shot doesn't have merit and the possible reasoning behind it very interesting but I personally think one could use high doses of slin more sensibly for crazy growth.

Hell if one of you guys wants to try 100iu hmaulog go for it and I will follow the thread but I would be VERY cautious and recommend against it.
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03-29-2018, 09:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concreteguy View Post
Can you even imagine how interesting it *could* be having guys shoot from the hip with idea's and thoughts with no worries of peer retribution? The problem is, and I'll just use this as an example. When I posted this Elvia jumped in with a post almost right away about how bad insulin can be and the dangers and the big amounts..........pretty much crushing what could have been conversation about (the real question). "Whats happening when you take huge amounts of insulin at one time? ". We have all heard a dozen times over about the general consensus regarding insulin. What the hell is wrong with a discussion about possibilities? Speculating on what could be happening?

I love questions and ideas that are out of the box. For me that's what keeps the lights on.
I agree but my post above expalins why. You should have just commented after me. You are going against your own post matey. Sometimes I think you feel/act if someone doesn't agree with you it's the end of the thread but it should be the beginning. You should know me good enough by now that I geneuinly wouldn't care if anyone disagreed with me. You are a great postewr with great ideas but if I don't agree with one of them it doesn't mean anything bad. The point is post why you disagree and that's what keeps the lights on... constructive debate and going over crazy ideas. I would never get offended by you as you post from a good place. Not like others who just post in disagreement to people because they don't like them.

It would be interesting to see blood glucose levels after using 100iu hamulog. Obviously one would have to be feeding before and after the shot as otherwise they would end up in a very bad place. So it would be interesting to see what number looked like when trying to essentially feed that insulin dose. There is only so much blood sugar can drop (whilst constantly taking in carbs) regardless of how much slin was used. So again there is merit to this if it does turn on different channels of growth but I just think it's over the top. I would much rather see a guy use multiple shots throughout the day but that is just my opinion. Guys do crazy things and this is one of them.


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03-29-2018, 09:50 PM

Elvia, Is that a disagreement with my hypothesis? I would be very interested to hear what you know of doing 100 ius of insulin at a time. Seams to be a narrow band of info out there. All I wanted was to talk about possibilities. I don't think anyone needs to be reminded doing a 100iu's of insulin is dangerous or stupid, do you? Seriously? It's obviously not to the guys willing to do it to get huge and go pro.
Elvia, to me a disagreement about this would be " I don't believe this would work because of this and that. Just sayin...... but maybe that's just me. Look I told you I don't think you have a bad bone in your body buddy. Don't read more into this than whats there friend.
All kidding aside I would like to hear any stories you have to share about related subject matter.
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03-29-2018, 10:21 PM

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Elvia, Is that a disagreement with my hypothesis? I would be very interested to hear what you know of doing 100 ius of insulin at a time. Seams to be a narrow band of info out there. All I wanted was to talk about possibilities. I don't think anyone needs to be reminded doing a 100iu's of insulin is dangerous or stupid, do you? Seriously? It's obviously not to the guys willing to do it to get huge and go pro.
Elvia, to me a disagreement about this would be " I don't believe this would work because of this and that. Just sayin...... but maybe that's just me. Look I told you I don't think you have a bad bone in your body buddy. Don't read more into this than whats there friend.
All kidding aside I would like to hear any stories you have to share about related subject matter.
No I don't disagree with the hypothesis at all. Drugs work and higher doses tend to work better within reason. Like with any drug everyone tends to have a certain dose were side effects start outweighing benefits. Insulin is a bit different though especially at such doses. As you and G-FLUX suggested this is all theory based and I have never come across evidence of this different pathway of growth. It still could exist but I don't know about it but have never ventured into that area of personal use. It is very interesting like most crazy protocols are. I honestly don't know. But is it a surprise that high doses of aas, slin and food create huge growth... of course not.

Yes the above post was in reference to 100iu humalog. Perhaps the difference in blood sugar post injection would be the same as say 50iu of humalog but if you open up that new avenue of growth then great. I mean there is only so much your blood glucose can drop by. The problem would be feeding that 100iu dose. Although I wonder just how different it would be from taking 50iu in regards to feeding the dose. It's not like we are talking difference between 5u and 15iu. Going on the 10iu per iu rule (obviously totally flawed but using it for explanation purposes) it's not like you would have to take in 1000g carbs or even close to it in a few hours to prevent going hypo. It definitely wouldn't work like that and the number would be a fraction... this goes back to the there is only so much blood glucose can drop by in a given period statement.

I don't know. It seems like a reckness and unnecessary route to go down but I am sure there are people out there to try it. The most I have ever heard someone use was I think 50iu in one dose. I have seen 40iu come up a few times on the forums. I have heard about 100-200iu in a day before but in one dose it's nowhere near the 100iu you was told about. Most guys I know pushing it are following the Milos protocol (he uses different amounts as you know) but they done 20-25iu pre and post and twice daily.
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03-29-2018, 11:37 PM

Has anyone used this much slin before or even close to it?
   
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03-29-2018, 11:59 PM

You have to be very healthy and have a very good counterregulatory system to survive it.

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03-30-2018, 07:20 AM

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G FLUX I think you totally have me wrong. I am one who constantly posts what many of the big guys are doing and I get flamed for it. It got to the point I was accused for bullshitting by a certain person on promuscle because I used to get felt up of the guys who suddenly forget what they done in the past. It's espescially annoying getting told by a guy he does x amount in private then on forum you only need low doses etc. That is a common theme on promuscle these days because it's not fashionable to "abuse" gear. I also love these type of discussions.

I regularly talk about guys using 100iu plus slin and ridiculous amount of gear. My posts are not in anyway suited to the general population. Perhaps you have just read some of my recent posts about being on standard cycles and being sensible. I am sensible in many ways on my self as I don't need to use anymore for my goals. It is also very true though as too many guys reply upon drugs and don't have the basics covered. Fact is most on here have no place to be going anywhere near 100-200iu slin per day including me.

I have experimented with high dosed slin in the sense of 20iu pre and post workout. Sure 40iu is not a lot per day but 20iu humalog is definitely not low. So I have some personal knowledge of higher doses of humalog. I have used lantus and humulin-r as well. I know guys who inject humalog with every single meal they eat so come across these sort of things.

So my post was not stopping conversation. I was merely stating I think 100iu humalog in 1 shot is generally stupid. It doesn't mean it won't work or has merit. I also stated using 100iu over the course of the day would be much better. I just think 100iu humalog in 1 shot is just people going a bit crazy. Now 20iu humalog 5 times per day would be different for someone wanting to become a freak. The same for 100iu+ of lantus per day.

I try to think out of the box all the time but again 100iu humalog in 1 shot to me is a bit silly. But everyone on here could have posted after me they disagreed and why. I would never crush a conversation merely post my opinion and why. You should have simply quoted me and disagreed. I wouldn't take offence as it's your opinion and we learn most through debate. I am not stating 100iu humalog in 1 shot doesn't have merit and the possible reasoning behind it very interesting but I personally think one could use high doses of slin more sensibly for crazy growth.

Hell if one of you guys wants to try 100iu hmaulog go for it and I will follow the thread but I would be VERY cautious and recommend against it.
That was most likely the case on my end...its all good and yeah its kind of a shame everyone preaches low dosages but yet very FEW run low dosages (relatively speaking) anymore.

Makes no sense...accept it..its part of bodybuilding haha

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Originally Posted by AGGRO View Post
Has anyone used this much slin before or even close to it?
I do not have the muscle mass I feel is required to push that much at 1 bolus shot but I have had my higher level competitors that are carrying a TON of mass utilize similar strategies and something definitely happens outside the typical growth patterns we see from training or nutrition or standard AAS/GH/Slin usage, thats why its so intriguing! You see something work but just cant nail down 100% WHY it does. Its definitely not for everyone and everyone I've had run it in this fashion is more than experienced enough to not get hurt doing so (and this should be stated as well, YOU NEED HIGH AAS/GH WILL ATTEMPTING THIS.) I just dont the major benefit if it was SOLELY insulin at such a high dosage as your missing out a lot on other synergies that happen hormonally


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Originally Posted by G160 View Post
You have to be very healthy and have a very good counterregulatory system to survive it.

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Bingo! Couldnt be said enough! Exactly why its a theory thread just meant to learn. Very few people even have the size required to do this and benefit (as I feel the number and size of the muscle cell itself along with how many nuclei it has plays a massive role...but I obviously cant be 100% certain.)
   
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04-01-2018, 10:20 AM

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Originally Posted by G160 View Post
You have to be very healthy and have a very good counterregulatory system to survive it.

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and be crazy!
   
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04-01-2018, 06:41 PM

This sounds interesting. I have tried high dosing certain things at times but never slin. If someone is doing this I would like to know about it. Never heard about anyone high dosing humalog. It seems very dangerous and the slightest mess up could end badly. The muscle fullness from this would be insane!
   
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04-02-2018, 08:06 AM

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Originally Posted by SURGE View Post
This sounds interesting. I have tried high dosing certain things at times but never slin. If someone is doing this I would like to know about it. Never heard about anyone high dosing humalog. It seems very dangerous and the slightest mess up could end badly. The muscle fullness from this would be insane!
Its not something you just do 1 time or or out of no where. Like everything else its built up strategically.
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