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My Thoughts on Anabolic Steroids...
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My Thoughts on Anabolic Steroids... - 08-21-2018, 05:59 PM

OK, so I was going to add this on to the "Thoughts on HGH" thread, but I have a feeling this thread may be a keeper, I thought I would start a new thread. Way more people use Anabolics than HGH so, let us use this thread to explore the multitude of issues with Steroid use, and bounce some of these questions off my friend Jano. I will preface the discussion by saying I am far from an expert, but like you all, I have my opinions. I'm sure that Jano will say that he is not an "expert" either but, I'm curious what his thoughts are on the subject.

Let me start by asking the first question, while forming the question with my personal beliefs.


I was listening to the RX Muscle series called, Ask Dave. He was saying that he believed the "Sweet Spot" for weekly Testosterone injections was 1000ml. I was surprised by that. It seems to me that the popular answer is, 500-750ml/week.


My question for Jano is:


What dosage do you think is the level where, above that, a person may be putting their health in jeopardy?

I believe the level is proportionate to a persons genetic ability to stay healthy. What I mean is, some people have a propensity for poor health. For this person, maybe abstaining from Steroid use is the answer. Other people are never sick a day in their life, maybe they can handle the higher dosages.

Your thoughts?

By the way, this question is directed to everyone.
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08-21-2018, 09:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racepicks View Post
OK, so I was going to add this on to the "Thoughts on HGH" thread, but I have a feeling this thread may be a keeper, I thought I would start a new thread. Way more people use Anabolics than HGH so, let us use this thread to explore the multitude of issues with Steroid use, and bounce some of these questions off my friend Jano. I will preface the discussion by saying I am far from an expert, but like you all, I have my opinions. I'm sure that Jano will say that he is not an "expert" either but, I'm curious what his thoughts are on the subject.

Let me start by asking the first question, while forming the question with my personal beliefs.


I was listening to the RX Muscle series called, Ask Dave. He was saying that he believed the "Sweet Spot" for weekly Testosterone injections was 1000ml. I was surprised by that. It seems to me that the popular answer is, 500-750ml/week.


My question for Jano is:


What dosage do you think is the level where, above that, a person may be putting their health in jeopardy?

I believe the level is proportionate to a persons genetic ability to stay healthy. What I mean is, some people have a propensity for poor health. For this person, maybe abstaining from Steroid use is the answer. Other people are never sick a day in their life, maybe they can handle the higher dosages.

Your thoughts?

By the way, this question is directed to everyone.
Iíll preface my post with the same disclaimer as yours. This is all just my opinion and I donít claim to infallible in any way.

Iíve always felt that itís dangerous to state that a certain amount of gear, regardless of the hormone in question, is a ďsweet spotĒ. Everyone responds differently to every hormone, and at different amounts. There canít be one certain amount that just works best for everyone, there are just too many variables in play.

Diet, training, gear experience, body fat percentage, amount of muscle mass, healthy, weight, standard hormone levels without gear, genetic propensity for side effects. These are just a handful of the myriad of moving pieces that work together to determine how an individual responds to a cycle. And notice that I didnít even bring up which hormones they were using or what amounts? Or the use of an AI. There are just too many pieces to the puzzle to make blanket generalizations about how much gear is ideal for any one individual.


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08-21-2018, 09:19 PM

Sully took my words and typed them out for me... fucker beat me to it. Lol... ^ is my exact thought process as I run low doses and think the highest I ran was maybe 700mg test e (not taking esterification factor out). I did not see a difference in physique between the doses or signifocant performance increase keeping everything else the same. That was back in '14 I think, and was me experimenting for my personal body response.

I always think I have a low tolerance for AAS as low doses work amazing for me.
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08-21-2018, 09:31 PM

It's definitely an issue of individual biovariance.

I was having a similar discussion with a friend and it's analogous to alcohol, caffeine, or a host of other substances - we all know that person where one cup of coffee turns them into a jittery mess and the other that can drink a pot right before bed without any Ill effects.

With something more dangerous like hormone manipulation, it always makes sense to start low and build from there. It's much more difficult, and riskier, to go high from the start and hope for the best.


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08-22-2018, 12:27 AM

I don’t believe there is any expert on the topic, except the person who’s body is being directly affected! We have all tried a higher dose at some point and for me personally I saw no benefit from it other than filling like shit. Then you have to factor in the many more side effects that come with running higher doses. I have seen guys who can run 250mg of test only a week with no sides and be in single digit bf%, because they know there body’s and their diet is on point. Back in the day I worked out with Jim Helwig a few times and he swore by higher doses! It wasn’t until he was older and out of wrestling that he said to me “I wish I would have listened to what my body was trying to tell me”!
In my opinion and it’s only an opinion, I believe the key is staying off cycle long enough to let the body recover before starting another cycle
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08-22-2018, 02:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by custom creation View Post
I donít believe there is any expert on the topic, except the person whoís body is being directly affected! We have all tried a higher dose at some point and for me personally I saw no benefit from it other than filling like shit. Then you have to factor in the many more side effects that come with running higher doses. I have seen guys who can run 250mg of test only a week with no sides and be in single digit bf%, because they know there bodyís and their diet is on point. Back in the day I worked out with Jim Helwig a few times and he swore by higher doses! It wasnít until he was older and out of wrestling that he said to me ďI wish I would have listened to what my body was trying to tell meĒ!
In my opinion and itís only an opinion, I believe the key is staying off cycle long enough to let the body recover before starting another cycle
This is very important. Every guy I have trained, I have made him come off everything for good amount of time.
   
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08-22-2018, 10:07 AM

Thoughts? A necessary evil. Unless your a true freak your note going to get to your goal with out it. Every one has there OWN individual threshold and "sweat spot" and most probably will never know what that is. Joe Common just remembers the one great cycle he did and doesn't put the thought into what it was and how much. MOST guys don't even chart their cycles and amounts. So they couldn't go back and study gains and why if they wanted to.


BTW: that's charting Gear/Diet/Training all together. I have done this for years and can go back any time and reflect on how I looked relevant to that information.
   
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08-22-2018, 04:44 PM

The prevailing opinion is:

A person should use the least amount of gear, while making steady gains,

Who can argue with that logic.

Unfortunately, like Concreteguy stated, I bet a lot of guys have not even charted their gains in relation to their dosages. They just begin the process of spiraling upwards. Some can get away with it for a while, and I'm thinking some meet some sort of medical emergency.

I am not trying to make this thread one of those "Dangers of High Doses", everybody post why you should not use high doses! In Palumbo's show I referenced earlier, he said the sweet spot for Testosterone was 1 gram that was in addition to 600ml Anabolics and some orals. No, what I want to hear is some honest opinions or first hand accounts of people who are firm believers of 1 gram Test as a base. Is this realistic??? Seems like it is not something the average gym rat would consider. Am I wrong?




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08-22-2018, 05:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racepicks View Post
The prevailing opinion is:

A person should use the least amount of gear, while making steady gains,

Who can argue with that logic.

Unfortunately, like Concreteguy stated, I bet a lot of guys have not even charted their gains in relation to their dosages. They just begin the process of spiraling upwards. Some can get away with it for a while, and I'm thinking some meet some sort of medical emergency.

I am not trying to make this thread one of those "Dangers of High Doses", everybody post why you should not use high doses! In Palumbo's show I referenced earlier, he said the sweet spot for Testosterone was 1 gram that was in addition to 600ml Anabolics and some orals. No, what I want to hear is some honest opinions or first hand accounts of people who are firm believers of 1 gram Test as a base. Is this realistic??? Seems like it is not something the average gym rat would consider. Am I wrong?
Maybe I should clarify what I was saying. Iím just as guilty as anyone of going way overboard on my gear use, and for no other reason than to see how much I could get away with. There was a time in the not so distant past where I was using over a gram of Tren Ace per week, for a little over 8 months straight. Why? Because I could, honestly. Once I figured out how to structure my gear use and ancillaries to keep the side effects at a minimum, it was just a matter of raising the dose until I figured out my what me ceiling was. The last thing I want to do is bash guys that use high doses, or summarily discourage anyone from experimenting with them. You donít know where your limits are unless you test them once or twice.

Race, you may want to post a link to the video you are referencing. I suspect there are some details and assumptions that are being missed when the story is being translated. It would be my guess that Dave is talking about serious, high level bodybuilders, that have better than average genetics, and have already achieved a certain level of overall muscle mass, and the things he says arenít really meant to translate to the average gym rat like the guys here. He probably also says the things he does, while making the assumption that we already u defers day those qualifying criteria, without having to have it explained to us. Thatís just a wild ass guess, though.


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08-22-2018, 06:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racepicks View Post
The prevailing opinion is:

A person should use the least amount of gear, while making steady gains,

Who can argue with that logic.

Unfortunately, like Concreteguy stated, I bet a lot of guys have not even charted their gains in relation to their dosages. They just begin the process of spiraling upwards. Some can get away with it for a while, and I'm thinking some meet some sort of medical emergency.

I am not trying to make this thread one of those "Dangers of High Doses", everybody post why you should not use high doses! In Palumbo's show I referenced earlier, he said the sweet spot for Testosterone was 1 gram that was in addition to 600ml Anabolics and some orals. No, what I want to hear is some honest opinions or first hand accounts of people who are firm believers of 1 gram Test as a base. Is this realistic??? Seems like it is not something the average gym rat would consider. Am I wrong?

Hey Race, the average gym rat is on (AT LEAST) a gram of shit totaled up. Most are tren happy.
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08-22-2018, 07:51 PM

You know, Sully! I just went back and replayed the video.

BUILDING FREAKY CALVES! #askDave

He is a little bit all over the place. Keep watching though, the question I was referencing was about an all Test cycle.
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08-22-2018, 07:57 PM

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Hey Race, the average gym rat is on (AT LEAST) a gram of shit totaled up. Most are tren happy.
Yeah CG, I believe you're right. When I refer to people who are blessed with great genetics, you come to mind. I'm up there in age, I've been on for years, non-stop. So for anyone who wants to share their experiences, have at it. I'm certainly in no position to judge.
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08-22-2018, 09:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racepicks View Post
You know, Sully! I just went back and replayed the video.

BUILDING FREAKY CALVES! #askDave

He is a little bit all over the place. Keep watching though, the question I was referencing was about an all Test cycle.
Ok, I watched the video and found the part youíre referencing.

If Iím completely honest, I lose a lot of respect for Dave and guys like him when they answer questions like those in such a flippant manner. Donít get me wrong, Dave is highly knowledgeable. Heís done more in and for bodybuilding than a chump like me ever will. Iím not trying to impugn his intelligence or question his conclusions.

Dave should know better than to answer a question like that. He knows as well as anyone that there are too many variables to take into account to make that kind of recommendation to someone that he has absolutely no knowledge about. I took the question to be a newb thatís asking about running his very first cycle, and Dave is telling the guy to start at a gram of Test a week. For a guys very first cycle! Seriously? I find that to be highly irresponsible. The guy could be a 400lb fat ass with absolutely no training experience that thinks running one cycle is going to turn him into Arnold in 2 months. The aromatization sides effects alone could be a total disaster for someone like that, not to mention BP, kidney function, sexual sides, etc.

We make a concerted effort to on this forum to get as much info as we can before we make a recommendation to someone, and even we donít have a decent concensus on what these guys should be taking and how much. Is Dave wrong in his assessment about the gains and side effects of a gram of Test a week? No, for most people heís probably spot on. But is he making that recommendation in responsible manner? Not even close. Dave dropped the ball there big time.
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08-23-2018, 06:38 PM

Look, I'm not trying to promote high dosages. I'm not saying people should not take high doses. People will do what they want to do and probably not admit they are using high amounts of AAS, out if fear they will be flamed for being reckless. What I want to do is get an idea what people are actually using. I will not allow anyone to get criticized for their doses. If someone actually trusts us all and lays out their usage, feel free to ask questions, but DO NOT FLAME. I will ban anyone who shuts down this discussion.
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08-23-2018, 11:32 PM

Since I’ve already mucked up this thread with a bunch of bitching, I’ll make an effort to get back on track.

Currently I’m using:
400mg Test E- every 3 days
300mg Deca- e3d
200mg Masteron- e3d
25 or 50mg (not sure which based on supplier testing) Dbol before every workout

This is a dirty bulk for me. I’ve got some gut/digestive issues which are making food intake difficult. This is by far the most Test I’ve ever run. It’s been interesting so far. Strength and growth have been good, but water retention is super high. I’ve also had a bear of a time controlling e2 and aromatization. Even 50mg daily pharma Aromasin isn’t fully keeping existing gyno from getting worse.

It’s been a very long time since I’ve run a cycle this big. And the high Test gives me mixed feelings. Usually my Test stays under 125mg per week, and I run a lot of Tren, Mast and Var. That keeps me big, full and strong, helps a lot with leaning out, and doesn’t give me any problems with gyno while only using a small amount of Aromasin every other day. I also don’t retain any water on that cycle or put on any fat, while keeping my total weekly dose of AAS somewhat lower. The Tren does cause a small amount of cystic acne on my back, that I don’t seem to be getting with my current Test and Deca cycle.

Do I think that a gram of Test is a pretty safe amount to run for a lot of guys? Based on my current cycle, I’d absolutely have to say yes. I’m highly sensitive to e2, and struggle with aromatization more than many guys. The majority of guys wouldn’t have nearly the trouble I do so long as they used a small AI dose to keep e2 in check.

For the past few years I’ve been, I wouldn’t say anti-Test, but definitely a believer in keeping Test at TRT levels, even during big bulking cycles. I figured, let the Deca (or whatever compound you’re using) do the majority of the heavy lifting. For guys like me that are in the minority and are highly sensitive to Test and estrogen conversion that’s probably a good idea. But, for the majority of guys out there, a more conventional approach of high Test is probably more productive.

I’m still not going to tell a newb to run a gram of Test on his first cycle, no matter what Dave says!
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08-24-2018, 06:53 AM

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Yeah CG, I believe you're right. When I refer to people who are blessed with great genetics, you come to mind. I'm up there in age, I've been on for years, non-stop. So for anyone who wants to share their experiences, have at it. I'm certainly in no position to judge.
Race that's a tuff spot to be in buddy. The reason we surge and cruise or stop is so the body can re-set and except the same amounts of gear with a positive anabolic response. Staying on for a long ride will change your set points to anabolics and cause you to NEED more and more to grow. That's how so many of the "pro's" end up on huge amounts of gear. Their bodies have developed a tolerance to high doses from titrating up over the years because they never come off. That combined with the mind set "more is more" and there off to the races. One other way around this would be for you to run cycles with gear you have never used before. Off the wall stuff like DHB and so on....
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08-25-2018, 07:51 AM

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Since Iíve already mucked up this thread with a bunch of bitching, Iíll make an effort to get back on track.

Currently Iím using:
400mg Test E- every 3 days
300mg Deca- e3d
200mg Masteron- e3d
25 or 50mg (not sure which based on supplier testing) Dbol before every workout

This is a dirty bulk for me. Iíve got some gut/digestive issues which are making food intake difficult. This is by far the most Test Iíve ever run. Itís been interesting so far. Strength and growth have been good, but water retention is super high. Iíve also had a bear of a time controlling e2 and aromatization. Even 50mg daily pharma Aromasin isnít fully keeping existing gyno from getting worse.

Itís been a very long time since Iíve run a cycle this big. And the high Test gives me mixed feelings. Usually my Test stays under 125mg per week, and I run a lot of Tren, Mast and Var. That keeps me big, full and strong, helps a lot with leaning out, and doesnít give me any problems with gyno while only using a small amount of Aromasin every other day. I also donít retain any water on that cycle or put on any fat, while keeping my total weekly dose of AAS somewhat lower. The Tren does cause a small amount of cystic acne on my back, that I donít seem to be getting with my current Test and Deca cycle.

Do I think that a gram of Test is a pretty safe amount to run for a lot of guys? Based on my current cycle, Iíd absolutely have to say yes. Iím highly sensitive to e2, and struggle with aromatization more than many guys. The majority of guys wouldnít have nearly the trouble I do so long as they used a small AI dose to keep e2 in check.

For the past few years Iíve been, I wouldnít say anti-Test, but definitely a believer in keeping Test at TRT levels, even during big bulking cycles. I figured, let the Deca (or whatever compound youíre using) do the majority of the heavy lifting. For guys like me that are in the minority and are highly sensitive to Test and estrogen conversion thatís probably a good idea. But, for the majority of guys out there, a more conventional approach of high Test is probably more productive.

Iím still not going to tell a newb to run a gram of Test on his first cycle, no matter what Dave says!
Mucking up the thread??? Are you kidding? Iím glad you are here to contribute. Your knowledge is appreciated.
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08-25-2018, 09:13 AM

My thoughts on cycles I've ran.

For growth my sweet spot seems to be pretty simple. Test no higher than 500 mg with some mast and an oral thrown in here and there seems to be just right with minimal sides. Anything over or adding a nandrolone in I get gyno no matter what I do even with impeccable bloods.

For leaning out 250 mg test with 350 tren 350 mast seems to do the job great. But I get sides with that cycle. Lethargy, insomnia on the last week or so, and an uncontrollable sex drive.
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08-25-2018, 07:00 PM

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Race that's a tuff spot to be in buddy. The reason we surge and cruise or stop is so the body can re-set and except the same amounts of gear with a positive anabolic response. Staying on for a long ride will change your set points to anabolics and cause you to NEED more and more to grow. That's how so many of the "pro's" end up on huge amounts of gear. Their bodies have developed a tolerance to high doses from titrating up over the years because they never come off. That combined with the mind set "more is more" and there off to the races. One other way around this would be for you to run cycles with gear you have never used before. Off the wall stuff like DHB and so on....
OK, CG. I saw what you did there!! "That combined with the mind set "more is more" and there off to the races.". Off to the Races

Seriously, when I say I have been on for years non-stop.....I mean I have been on, close to 8 years, non-stop. Being honest, most of the time it is pretty much TRT doses (200mg./week). When I do ramp up, I still stay under 1 gram of Test per week. I believe last year when this test was performed, I was on 300mg. Testosterone/3 times per week.
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08-26-2018, 09:28 AM

Love the numbers buddy. The amounts you do are only relevant to you and my post still stands relevant to you. The odds are if you jacked your none cruise numbers up a few click you would experience new growth. YOU KNOW you cant repeat the same actions and expect a different out come. This is when all things are on point. You may want to try switching out gear for other, new gear that's different in the same amounts first? Were not talking about healthy, this is about growth right? Because there's NOTHING healthy about it. Just levels of how unhealthy your going to go and then HRT.
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Last edited by Concreteguy; 08-26-2018 at 01:03 PM.
   
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