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nolvadex/clomid
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nolvadex/clomid - 07-03-2005, 02:15 PM

Question?? is nolvadex better than clomid or vis versa? or do i need both for just a test e. cycle? and if i need nolvadex when should i take it during my cycle ?


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07-03-2005, 07:57 PM

The latest concensus is that both combined for PCT is the best way to go. I personally just take Nolvadex throughout as well as for PCT. I do not like to Clomid sides. If you are going to do a test e cycle, make sure you have some Nolvadex on hand in case your nips start to get itchy or puffy. Then take the nolvadex. A lot of people do not need it, but I unfortunately do.
   
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07-04-2005, 12:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tee
A lot of people do not need it, but I unfortunately do.
That's why they call them "bitch" tits....Don't take them on cycle unless you need to...pct i would prefer like tee said nolva only because of some of the sides of clomid
   
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07-05-2005, 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ORACLE
That's why they call them "bitch" tits....Don't take them on cycle unless you need to...pct i would prefer like tee said nolva only because of some of the sides of clomid
will nolvadex restore my natural test level ? and what type of side does clomid have i havent read about any sides to clomid. and one more thing i should not use nolvadex unless i start to get the bitch tits. is it true that some people do not require pct?


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07-05-2005, 01:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cawb
will nolvadex restore my natural test level ? and what type of side does clomid have i havent read about any sides to clomid. and one more thing i should not use nolvadex unless i start to get the bitch tits. is it true that some people do not require pct?

I would like the sides of clomid and nolvadex aswell.
   
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07-05-2005, 02:08 PM

The sides of Clomid in some people, are depression, lethargy, weepiness, vision disturbances, decreased libido, increased SHBG, lesser ejaculate volume, suppressed IGF-1, inhibited FSH levels, acne.

I am not aware of any sides from Nolvadex other than a possible estrogen re-bound effect that can occur upon cessation.

Cawb, I wouldn't take Nolvadex throughout the cycle unless you get itchy/puffy nips.

PCT is post cycle therapy. It is needed for you to get your system going again after your cycle of steroids is over. Please make sure you read all our stickies at the beginning of the forum and understand it all before engaging in a cycle. If you have any questions though, feel free to ask us.
   
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08-06-2005, 10:06 PM

nolva is also about twice as effective as clomid per mg


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08-06-2005, 10:28 PM

one of the biggest reasons lots of bro's steer clear of Clo is because of the sides that Tee mentioned...me personally i want to kill myself when i do Clo so i stay away form it al together.


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08-07-2005, 12:56 AM

An article I had stashed on the computer. I dont know where it came from.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Nolva vs. Clomid for PCT

It seems like everyday questions concerning PCT pop up, and weather one should use either Clomid or nolva or a combo of both. I hope that this article written by BigCat may help to clear up some misconceptions.



While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while Clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, Clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling Clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how Clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than Clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of nolva or 100 mg/day of Clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the Clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than Clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term Clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than Clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try Clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:

If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.

References

1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27

2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9
   
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08-16-2005, 01:27 PM

Nolvadex w/ clomid tried and true
   
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08-18-2005, 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister.fantasti
Nolvadex w/ clomid tried and true
I don't see the need to run both, and the article T posted only reinforces that. Run one or the other.


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08-18-2005, 03:21 PM

Damn, this really shed some light on the sides I had during my first PCT about 6 months ago...everything Tee stated
I expierienced and it SUCKED! plus insomnia...I went to
a sports medicine doctor who happened to be a woman and she laughed and said Ha! now you know what we go through (bitch).....Anyway, I had no idea it was the Clomid...gotta shelf it..
Thanx Tee & Company

ps. what about Nolva w/Porviron for PCT? or should it just be Nolva?
guess I'm looking for the optimal PCT recpie...thanx
   
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08-18-2005, 04:25 PM

Im in the middle of my pct now and my acne is much worse than usuall from the clomid.
   
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