Test only vs more than 1 compound

Howdy Elvia hope you had good xmas. I really like the high tren low test idea Elv. Saps over at pm is really big on that and very insightful on low test High tren. We use to do it that way back in the mid 80s with great results.
Marsh the only thing that I wonder on just test high mg is the lack of collegen
synthesis. That would be my only worry -connective tissue. Might just be bro science. I will say that most of the catastrophic muscle injuries i've seen over the last 3 decades or so were in test only users . I'm not talking about cruise type stuff with the occasional blast. I'm talking 2 gram /week guys that just stay on .Might be a coincidence but almost all the pec tears, quad tears etc that i've known of with friends /lifting partners were test only guys.
Someone straighten me out on this.. Thanks, T

turbobusa said:

Howdy Elvia hope you had good xmas. I really like the high tren low test idea Elv. Saps over at pm is really big on that and very insightful on low test High tren. We use to do it that way back in the mid 80s with great results.
Marsh the only thing that I wonder on just test high mg is the lack of collegen
synthesis. That would be my only worry -connective tissue. Might just be bro science. I will say that most of the catastrophic muscle injuries i've seen over the last 3 decades or so were in test only users . I'm not talking about cruise type stuff with the occasional blast. I'm talking 2 gram /week guys that just stay on .Might be a coincidence but almost all the pec tears, quad tears etc that i've known of with friends /lifting partners were test only guys.
Someone straighten me out on this.. Thanks, T

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Firstly b12 you really are off in your thinking with your ratios. Fact is you stated how you would never do test and tren at the same dose as they will compete for the same receptor so I merely commented why that is wrong. I am not gonna argue with you though and you can do whatever you want and I wish you all the best. Although I have to add those were just examples and I never do them at the same dose but it won't do any damage if you do. As I mentioned earlier I do recommend people try low test and high tren... I wish I could so I am jealous (high tren for me is 50mg per day) Everyone reacts differently but many really do overcomplicate hormones.

Turbo there is evidence to show testosterones effects on collagen. Although I think estrogen and especially progesterone can have an even bigger effect on collagen formation. I think the primary reason for high test having such an effect is the strength that comes from taking it. Added to that the androgenic sides... leading onto the aggression and attitude in the gym. People start lifting higher and higher and grow at an accelarated rate on such doses. Of course the connective tissue, ligaments and joints etc have to support all this added strength. They simply weaken and people can overdo it and bang... bad injury.

Thinking about it alot of guys who use high test also take large amounts of AI's etc. Generally I think many way overdo the estrogenic aids... usually scared they will get gyno. As a result the AI's on high test can really dry you out. I think the inclusion of 200mg deca on such a cycle is a wise choice. Another thing that pops up is winny... I have seen so many injuries with guys on winny... I would never take winny when trying to increase the weights alot.

I just noticed you wrote about guys who blast and cruise and use alot of test... same sort of applies anyway I think for many it is simply wear and tear. Some are lucky and have very strong ligaments etc. Others need to be more careful and squating 250kg and benching 200kg all through the year is gonna get them at some point. Then you could go into the whole exercise choice (pec tear... flat bench) and form and we would be here forever

Turbo good to hear you had a good xmas in your other post. Have a great 2013

Elvia1023 said:

Firstly b12 you really are off in your thinking with your ratios. Fact is you stated how you would never do test and tren at the same dose as they will compete for the same receptor so I merely commented why that is wrong. I am not gonna argue with you though and you can do whatever you want and I wish you all the best. Although I have to add those were just examples and I never do them at the same dose but it won't do any damage if you do. As I mentioned earlier I do recommend people try low test and high tren... I wish I could so I am jealous (high tren for me is 50mg per day) Everyone reacts differently but many really do overcomplicate hormones.

Turbo there is evidence to show testosterones effects on collagen. Although I think estrogen and especially progesterone can have an even bigger effect on collagen formation. I think the primary reason for high test having such an effect is the strength that comes from taking it. Added to that the androgenic sides... leading onto the aggression and attitude in the gym. People start lifting higher and higher and grow at an accelarated rate on such doses. Of course the connective tissue, ligaments and joints etc have to support all this added strength. They simply weaken and people can overdo it and bang... bad injury.

Thinking about it alot of guys who use high test also take large amounts of AI's etc. Generally I think many way overdo the estrogenic aids... usually scared they will get gyno. As a result the AI's on high test can really dry you out. I think the inclusion of 200mg deca on such a cycle is a wise choice. Another thing that pops up is winny... I have seen so many injuries with guys on winny... I would never take winny when trying to increase the weights alot.

I just noticed you wrote about guys who blast and cruise and use alot of test... same sort of applies anyway I think for many it is simply wear and tear. Some are lucky and have very strong ligaments etc. Others need to be more careful and squating 250kg and benching 200kg all through the year is gonna get them at some point. Then you could go into the whole exercise choice (pec tear... flat bench) and form and we would be here forever

Turbo good to hear you had a good xmas in your other post. Have a great 2013

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Ok...Are you not familiar at ALL with PD/PK constructs for TST /agonists ? hmmm...tell me again what broscience is ? Why give advice you would not even follow yourself?

When you say "To give an indication I think great cycles for many (not all) could be something like the following...
1g range- 300mg test, 300 tren and 400mg mast/npp...blah blah blah, et al. and then flip-flop with "...As I mentioned earlier I do recommend people try low test and high tren."

"...but it won't do any damage if you do..." Is that your example of a theraputic index, something that you could never do -have never done, would not ever do?
I guess in not so many words, you wouldn't do test:tren in a 1:1 ratio either. Best of luck to you in figuring that out.

:food-smiley-007::food-smiley-007::food-smiley-007:

I haven't really got time to argue with you... off to work. However ... No I would happily do test and tren at the same dose... happily. I stated I haven't actually done that. Sure I have been on 200mg of each before but then I upped the tren over time to 50mg per day. I like to up doses gradually during a cycle (when needed). I have done more test than tren too... all pretty basic stuff.

Again you stated how they will compete for the same receptor doing 300/400mg of each... so I can assume you meant it would basically be bad or not optimal. I merely pointed out how your logic was completely wrong. You were infact way off on your statement. The fact you thought they will basically cancel eachother or partly out (you didn't use the words but what else would competing for the same receptor mean) shows you need to do more research for yourself.

My summer cycle is gonna include 300mg test and tren in... although maybe I should do 285mg test so they don't compete for the same receptor

Honestly just do what you want and I can't be bothered with you. You will think you were right and I will think I am right. Sure when you do more research into it you will realize you were wrong and but act like you were right People really do overcomplicate hormones thinking there is a perfect ratio for hulk like muscle growth. It's about progression... I know guys who take 2g of both togther and they certainly don't look like they are cancelling eachother out. By the way I may not look it cos I am a work in progress but I do know my hormones and what you wrote is basic misinformation you get on every forum.

Morning (here anyway) Elvia. I do plan on a high tren/ low test cycle for spring.
I am hoping that by reducing test I will get the benefits with less sides.
I think with prolactin in cheque I could go with almost no test. Can you tell me how much more androgenic tren is vs test? I thought it was 2-3 X more andro than test but a buddy is telling me in some old duchaine stuff he mentions
5X the androgenicity(is that a real word? lol)of test. With high androgens fron tren and prolactin in check do I really need much test at all.
Remember I just woke up with a turkey hangover so forgive any am redundancy. Hope the work day was good. T

Hey dudcki27! If anyone knows tren, dudcki27 is the man! Interesting debate, bro. @elvia1023 hey man, I think you're reading the wrong way on the competing thing? A lot of information about a how a hormone acts can be inferred by knowing the type of receptor it uses, so like at those levels for both compounds, it's better to use just one. Rest of the stuff looks like you guys are saying the same kinds of things in different ways. @turbousa yeah man, it's like 3x. You can run tren solo, bro.

I am just all confused now? lol O and glad to see you over GastrocGuy!

I'm running 125mg Sust and 250mg Tren EOD... Probably one of my favorites I have ever ran! Big, lean and strong as fuck

Big-John said:

I am just all confused now? lol O and glad to see you over GastrocGuy!

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Hey big-John ! heheh, I dunno, when it comes to tren i read up on dudcki27's posts on the other board and it works good for me! (1400mgs! )

GastrocGuy said:

Hey big-John ! heheh, I dunno, when it comes to tren i read up on dudcki27's posts on the other board and it works good for me! (1400mgs! )

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Yeah I could not agree more. But man the more I research the more confused I get. Guys running over a gram of test a week? Im not saying there wrong but I see other guys saying they got more results on 300mg of test a week compared to 1000? I guess it varies between people.

turbobusa said:

Morning (here anyway) Elvia. I do plan on a high tren/ low test cycle for spring.
I am hoping that by reducing test I will get the benefits with less sides.
I think with prolactin in cheque I could go with almost no test. Can you tell me how much more androgenic tren is vs test? I thought it was 2-3 X more andro than test but a buddy is telling me in some old duchaine stuff he mentions
5X the androgenicity(is that a real word? lol)of test. With high androgens fron tren and prolactin in check do I really need much test at all.
Remember I just woke up with a turkey hangover so forgive any am redundancy. Hope the work day was good. T

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Testosterone has an Anabolic\Androgenic rating of 100\100 and Trenbolone is 500\500.

I am with you Big John, getting a little confused....

Okay, so if I run a 2:1 ratio of Tren vs Test Cyp (Example 800mg Tren/week and 400mg of Test Cyp/week) would that be counterproductive and a waste of product??

chris698 said:

I am with you Big John, getting a little confused....

Okay, so if I run a 2:1 ratio of Tren vs Test Cyp (Example 800mg Tren/week and 400mg of Test Cyp/week) would that be counterproductive and a waste of product??

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You NEVER need more than125-250mgs of test while on any dose of tren...fact not broscience.

I'd say no... Past 2 blast have been low test high Tren. Last one was 250 test E and 600mg Tren E. I LOVED it...

Got it, thanks!

dudcki27 said:

You NEVER need more than125-250mgs of test while on any dose of tren...fact not broscience.

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GastrocGuy said:

Hey dudcki27! If anyone knows tren, dudcki27 is the man! Interesting debate, bro. @elvia1023 hey man, I think you're reading the wrong way on the competing thing? A lot of information about a how a hormone acts can be inferred by knowing the type of receptor it uses, so like at those levels for both compounds, it's better to use just one. Rest of the stuff looks like you guys are saying the same kinds of things in different ways. @turbousa yeah man, it's like 3x. You can run tren solo, bro.

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Hi matey. No I am well aware of that. I understand where his side of the debate is coming from. However I think I mentioned a few details in my first reply to him. It's similar to when emeric says to not take deca with test (emeric knows more than anyone). But trust me the statement b12 made in his first post was way off and thats why I disagreed. I wouldn't say we are saying the same thing quite the opposite. I think it is just another example of someone overcomplicating hormones. But trust me I know all about how hormones can activate various receptors.

I should add I am well aware of the binding affinity tren has to the androgen receptor. I think this is the main reason for b12's debate. But again I don't think there will be a problem with 300-400mg test and tren. I have also made it clear that I think it is optimal to use higher tren than test for cycles... I don't particularly like test... I must prefer deca, mast etc.

Turbo someone else answered. Yeah the anabolic/androgenic ratios are 100/100 for test (first one) and 500/500 for tren. This is where the 5 times stronger comes from. Things written on paper don't always come to life in a pratical situation though. You only have to look at some of the other ratios to see that (such as halo). However everyone is different so some are more sensitive to certain compounds. I would have to agree though I would say it is approx 3 times stronger. But that guess means nothing as fact is tren can do things to a physique test could never regardless of the dose.

Just adding I see people are getting confused. This is why I said about overcomplicating things when they is no need. People are now thinking if I do x amount of this and y amount of that will that be effective. It's all nonsense. Different things work for different people. But get the hormones in your blood and be consistent with diet and training and you will do well... well that is what I plan to do anyway. There is no magic formula... the hard work is in the kitchen and gym. Although injecting everyday does get annoying

Anyone wanting to do high tren and low test I recommend trying 200mg test weekly and say 50mg tren a per day. Then move up in tren gradually over the weeks. Everyone has a limit... some want to go really high but can't so just see where your limit is or where you are happy with. I think 200mg test and 500mg tren is plenty. I know some experienced guys who do 300mg tren a per day so we are all different. First time tren users 200mg is plenty... 50mg per day should impress you more than anything you have ever done.

Marshall said:

I'm kind of surprised at all of the high tren guys, when on the other thread it was one of the most popular compounds that people plan on avoiding.

So the general consensus is that 700 Test, 500 Eq and 300 Deca (or something similar depending on your favorites) would be much more effective, with less annoying sides than 1.5g of Test?

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It's hard to say as everyone responds differently. I think the key is to try both methods and see for yourself. Alot of guys dismiss certain approaches without ever trying them. A good example of this is guys who think you must do more test then any other compound... loads of people think that.

I would say generally though less sides are noticed when guys pick compounds that suit them and use small-moderate doses of multiple compounds. I know plenty of guys who like high test but I know more who get bad sides from it. The amount of people I know who complain about tiredness, ill feeling, estrogenic sides etc are too many for it to not be a highly possible side. Many simply think you have to feel that way on high hormones.

It's upto you what you are gonna do. I would personally do the 3 compounds instead of just test but thats just me. Saying that if it were me I would just do 1g deca and 500mg test but that just shows how everyone is different.

Although if one was to blast some gh and slin I think the test could be great. I was tired from just over a gram of test recently. I added gh for practially the 1st time ever and that made me really bad. Then I added slin for the first time ever (5-8IU) and it had got to a point I literally couldn't get up for the gym some days. I got that fed up I stopped injecting most of the time. If I were left I could sleep for 12 hours and it was getting silly so I have made changes so I can put 100% into everything. Sure if you didn't have to work and could just train and have fun it would be amazing but for me it was getting silly.

Let us know what you decide to do. I am running a few bits now but plan to do roughly the above (test and deca) sometime in Feb.

Magical things seem to happen when I hit 1g of Test. I'll take that over stacking, much easier to control sides and I just feel real good.