Hows the future of the usa look to you

MilburnCreek · Nov 20, 2012

Marshall said:
Don't agree with the article you posted at all. Taxing religion would bring in billions. It is what it is, we'll have to agree to disagree on the topic rather than post endless research that would support both pov's (like any political topic) 0.

You're entitled to your opinion. You're not entitled to assert opinion as fact.

1) What kind of Tax did you have in mind?
2) What is the basis on which you believe 'billions' would be received?
3) Which fact in the article did you disagree with, and with what evidence?

Didn't think so . . . .

AnaSCI · Nov 20, 2012

Guys please keep it civil. This is an opinion based thread and everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Everyone needs to remember that when posting their view points. Thank you.

Marshall · Nov 20, 2012

Here's a short article MC. If we started with just those 6, we'd already be into billions of tax free income.

6 Outrageously Wealthy Preachers Under Federal Investigation - NakedLaw by Avvo.com

Anyway, like the boss says, it's just an opinion that people agree to disagree on, no biggie brother.

JAG · Nov 21, 2012

I do not think we should be talking about what else we should tax, we (and politicians) should be talking about what spending we should cut. Nothing should be sacred...social programs, defense ect...

IMO, Churches should be tax free but they should also be nonprofits. Meaning all proceeds should be going to charitable endeavors.

Jello · Nov 21, 2012

MilburnCreek said:
Considering I've written three books on the subject, have been teaching Economics at a college level for 14 years, and directed an Economic Development agency for 9 prior to that, you might be hard-pressed to back up your contention that I write from an "uneducated point of view."

It would only appear that way because of the position you seem to be taking. Those of us who hire people, and as a result have to fire people, have to deal with the decisions politicians make on a regular basis.

The CBO recently released it's findings stating that a tax increase at this point in time would cost 200k jobs, less than the 700k republicans stated, but would cost jobs none the less. The problem then comes from the ripple effect that those 200k jobs will cause. If you know as much about economics as you claim you should be able to fill in the rest of that picture.

It's a nice Robin Hood, make you feel warm inside stance to take, problem is the guys that they are talking about taxing is the same group of people that put the rest of the country to work. Common sense should kick in here somewhere.

Marshall · Nov 21, 2012

JAG said:
IMO, Churches should be tax free but they should also be nonprofits. Meaning all proceeds should be going to charitable endeavors.

Well, they're suppose to be (not for private benefit). Unfortunately it's human beings who run them, so greed and corruption go hand in hand.

I like the altruistic way of thinking though JAG

MilburnCreek · Nov 21, 2012

Marshall said:
Here's a short article MC. If we started with just those 6, we'd already be into billions of tax free income.

6 Outrageously Wealthy Preachers Under Federal Investigation - NakedLaw by Avvo.com

Anyway, like the boss says, it's just an opinion that people agree to disagree on, no biggie brother.

In which case, we're not talking about taxing churches at all, are we? You are referring to the income that individuals on church payrolls make: the income that church employees earn.

Did you realize that this is ALREADY taxable? Church employees PAY individual income tax.

If you want to collect MORE tax from them, I'm all for that:as long as you're willing to raise tax rates for EVERYONE making that level of income.

Which I support.... But this has nothing to do with churches.

K1 · Nov 21, 2012

MilburnCreek said:
In which case, we're not talking about taxing churches at all, are we? You are referring to the income that individuals on church payrolls make: the income that church employees earn.

Did you realize that this is ALREADY taxable? Church employees PAY individual income tax.

If you want to collect MORE tax from them, I'm all for that:as long as you're willing to raise tax rates for EVERYONE making that level of income.

Which I support.... But this has nothing to do with churches.

I for the most part stay out of political or religious debates as there never is or never will be a "winner" so to speak.....

My question is does a Priest or a pastor or whatever they are called, get paid by the church?!

Jello · Nov 21, 2012

MilburnCreek said:
In which case, we're not talking about taxing churches at all, are we? You are referring to the income that individuals on church payrolls make: the income that church employees earn.

Did you realize that this is ALREADY taxable? Church employees PAY individual income tax.

If you want to collect MORE tax from them, I'm all for that:as long as you're willing to raise tax rates for EVERYONE making that level of income.

Which I support.... But this has nothing to do with churches.

Now this I absolutely agree with, everyone in this country should be paying taxes. If you want to be fair about it, 50% of this country shouldn't be supporting the other 50%.

TFerguson · Nov 21, 2012

Jello said:
Now this I absolutely agree with, everyone in this country should be paying taxes. If you want to be fair about it, 50% of this country shouldn't be supporting the other 50%.

Couldn't agree more with this - I am a small business owner and pay such a high effective tax rate, most years I would make more money working for someone else not taking any risk.

Don't agree with taxing more of anything, including churches. I am in total favor of a complete tax overhaul - maybe a move towards a flat tax or usage tax; give people an opportunity to control the amount they want to be overwhelmed with every year. This would also level the playing field with the near 50% not paying any taxes which is bullshit

MilburnCreek · Nov 21, 2012

Jello said:
It would only appear that way because of the position you seem to be taking. Those of us who hire people, and as a result have to fire people, have to deal with the decisions politicians make on a regular basis.

Yeah, 'those of us' would include me. I own a bar/restaurant and have for 6 years, surviving the worst downtown in the economy in three generations. And taxes are the LAST of my problems...I have never had to fire anyone because of 'taxes.' I have had more problems with cocky, lazy, functionally illiterate employees than I ever had with taxes.

Marshall · Nov 22, 2012

K1 said:
I for the most part stay out of political or religious debates as there never is or never will be a "winner" so to speak.....

My question is does a Priest or a pastor or whatever they are called, get paid by the church?!

Agreed 100% my friend. There is no winner.

And yes, they get paid by the income from the church, which is usually overseen by some kind of committee.

Marshall · Nov 22, 2012

MilburnCreek said:
In which case, we're not talking about taxing churches at all, are we? You are referring to the income that individuals on church payrolls make: the income that church employees earn.

Did you realize that this is ALREADY taxable? Church employees PAY individual income tax.

If you want to collect MORE tax from them, I'm all for that:as long as you're willing to raise tax rates for EVERYONE making that level of income.

Which I support.... But this has nothing to do with churches.

Kenny Copeland doesn't seem to get it, as well as tens of thousands of other 'ministries' though. Sucks for the hardworking American.

Kenneth Copeland refused to submit financial information about his ministry, saying “You can go get a subpoena, and I won’t give it to you. It’s not yours, it’s God’s and you’re not going to get it and that’s something I’ll go to prison over. So, just get over it.”

Copeland lives in a mansion that some have said is “the size of a hotel.” He also has acquired a $20 million Cessna Citation private jet for flying around the country to spread the word. And of course, he owns an airport for landing said airplane.

Jello · Nov 22, 2012

MilburnCreek said:
Yeah, 'those of us' would include me. I own a bar/restaurant and have for 6 years, surviving the worst downtown in the economy in three generations. And taxes are the LAST of my problems...I have never had to fire anyone because of 'taxes.' I have had more problems with cocky, lazy, functionally illiterate employees than I ever had with taxes.

I'm going to try to pick my words carefully because I don't want this to come across the wrong way. Trying to compare your business to what I do with the education level of my employees and the wages I pay compared to yours is not exactly comparing apples to apples. You have employees that you can pay less than minimum wage because they collect tips. Your payroll taxes you pay for the year is probably less than what I paid last quarter. Again, I mean no disrespect by this, it's just not a fair comparison to say WE are dealing with the same problems and that tax rates don't effect you. I'm sure they don't effect you but they do me. I have tax guys that put plans together for me to show me where and how I can expand or cut to grow the bottom line and it's decisions I have to live with day in and day out.

MilburnCreek · Nov 22, 2012

Jello said:
I'm going to try to pick my words carefully because I don't want this to come across the wrong way. Trying to compare your business to what I do with the education level of my employees and the wages I pay compared to yours is not exactly comparing apples to apples. You have employees that you can pay less than minimum wage because they collect tips. Your payroll taxes you pay for the year is probably less than what I paid last quarter. Again, I mean no disrespect by this, it's just not a fair comparison to say WE are dealing with the same problems and that tax rates don't effect you. I'm sure they don't effect you but they do me. I have tax guys that put plans together for me to show me where and how I can expand or cut to grow the bottom line and it's decisions I have to live with day in and day out.

Dont EVER make assumptions. I dont believe in paying less than minimum wage (I'm a liberal, remember?). I START my bartenders and cooks at $15/hour.

Yeah, read that again.

We have no waitstaff. Place your order with me at the bar, I'll yell your name when its ready

Bottom line is that payroll taxes cost neither of us squat: ALL individual income tax comes from the employees check, not your pocket. Only social security - which was ridiculously lowered - comes out o your pocket.

Jello · Nov 22, 2012

MilburnCreek said:
Dont EVER make assumptions. I dont believe in paying less than minimum wage (I'm a liberal, remember?). I START my bartenders and cooks at $15/hour.

Yeah, read that again.

We have no waitstaff. Place your order with me at the bar, I'll yell your name when its ready

Bottom line is that payroll taxes cost neither of us squat: ALL individual income tax comes from the employees check, not your pocket. Only social security - which was ridiculously lowered - comes out o your pocket.

"A middle-class taxpayer’s income is subject to a 25 percent federal income tax. Then there is the federal Social Security and Medicare payroll tax of 13.3 percent in 2012—5.65 percent of that is removed from the employee’s paycheck, and the remaining 7.65 percent is paid by the employer."

Here's an explanation for you of how you contribute to your employees tax payments. As an employer I would be able to pay a higher wage if I wasn't paying part of their taxes. I can quote the exact tax code if you want me to but the legal version is quite boring and I would assume with your background you would already know this.

I'm surprised that with the wages you're paying you are having so much trouble finding good help.

MilburnCreek · Nov 23, 2012

Jello said:
"A middle-class taxpayer’s income is subject to a 25 percent federal income tax. Then there is the federal Social Security and Medicare payroll tax of 13.3 percent in 2012—5.65 percent of that is removed from the employee’s paycheck, and the remaining 7.65 percent is paid by the employer."

Here's an explanation for you of how you contribute to your employees tax payments. As an employer I would be able to pay a higher wage if I wasn't paying part of their taxes. I can quote the exact tax code if you want me to but the legal version is quite boring and I would assume with your background you would already know this.

I'm surprised that with the wages you're paying you are having so much trouble finding good help.

1) Actually, its not 25%. Its a 25% *marginal* tax rate (meaning the total is LESS than 25%). Second, it is based on taxable income AFTER deductions, which means the typical middle class american is paying a maximum of 10% of their income in taxes...not enough for the services they demand.

2) The social security tax you pay (which is 7.65%) is the same its been for 72 years. You cant claim its too onerous when it has never changed.

3) A 7.65% tax on an annual payroll of $500,000 is a little over $38,000: barely enough to cover ONE additional full time position. You rnumbers dont add up.

Jello · Nov 23, 2012

MilburnCreek said:
1) Actually, its not 25%. Its a 25% *marginal* tax rate (meaning the total is LESS than 25%). Second, it is based on taxable income AFTER deductions, which means the typical middle class american is paying a maximum of 10% of their income in taxes...not enough for the services they demand.

2) The social security tax you pay (which is 7.65%) is the same its been for 72 years. You cant claim its too onerous when it has never changed.

3) A 7.65% tax on an annual payroll of $500,000 is a little over $38,000: barely enough to cover ONE additional full time position. You rnumbers dont add up.

I do well over $500,000 in annual payroll, so it does add up for me. Again, I'm not trying to offend you but you are comparing apples to oranges in how the taxes I pay compare to yours.

That 7.65% is not much if you are only dealing with a couple employees. Multiply that out a few times and then get hit with a tax hike in other areas and it becomes one of those areas where you start looking to help your bottom line. Liberals seem to have a problem seeing past their decisions and don't understand there is a ripple effect.

It's a nice PR point to talk about rich people paying more, but when they admit it themselves that it won't do anything to help pay down the national debt it's time to start looking at the things that would. Entitlements are killing this country like it did to Greece and if they don't do something about it now it's only going to hurt worse when they finally have to.

Mad Matt · Nov 26, 2012

As a person who doesn't live in the US so looks at them as an neutral observer im just waiting for a name change to the, "United States Of Israel".......

MilburnCreek · Nov 26, 2012

Jello said:
It's a nice PR point to talk about rich people paying more, but when they admit it themselves that it won't do anything to help pay down the national debt it's time to start looking at the things that would. Entitlements are killing this country like it did to Greece and if they don't do something about it now it's only going to hurt worse when they finally have to.

Of course it will. Eliminate Mortgage Interest deductions, and, more importantly, tax capital gains at the same rate as earned income, and watch the deficit fall. The current system rewards gambling that produces ZERO jobs and ZERO products, and punished those who engage in labor.

And I'm sorry, but regardless of how big your payroll is, paying a mere 7.65% (of the first $120,000 per employee, because its ZERO after that) is a TINY amount to pay for social security...especially when the value of your stocks, buildings, and other assets have increased triple or quadruple-fold in the last 72 years, while the social security tax hasnt gone up a dime since Eisenhower. All the whining in the word about that small tax is not going to convince me of anything.

Hows the future of the usa look to you

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