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SubQ vs IM discussion

electrickettle6

Registered User
Dec 6, 2012
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Sub q is a viable form of administration. It is used in HRT clinics by a medical professional. BUT the amount of oils we put into our body makes it very difficult for us to sub q inject our hormones. It leaves a welt and usually gives me a histamine release around the injection site.
Also the medical administration is usually .5 ml Twice a week and done on the corner of the bottom abdominals.
If you want to do it alternate the 4 corners of your abs and start with .5mls every application.
Might as well pin man.
 

Ironbuilt

Banned
Nov 11, 2012
8,353
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Mûnich , Germany
So you guys that say subq are you talking for AAS or just peptide/hgh products . I've never heard of subq AAS oils always im? If you are using a one inch slin pin you are still im and not going at an angle leaving a bump of oil under the skin layer are you? Only AAS for like a site injection with actual studies is inj winny right. Thanks for clarifying ..
 

striffe

AnaSCI VET
Feb 6, 2012
2,450
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USA
For some reason quads kill me. I like bis, shoulders, and my new favorite, ventrogluteal. All with slin pin, all im.

Me too, quads are a bad spot for me, for some reason. I use slin pins and 1" 25g. I mainly do glutes, delts, and bis. Slin pin for bis, i use both for delts, and 1" 25g for glutes.
 

NOSUPERMODEL

Registered User
Nov 6, 2012
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Started doing my TRT dosage Sub Q. Its a nice break from the twice weekly IM. If I could only load the slin pins faster. Takes me about 20 minutes to get everything done.
 

Ironbuilt

Banned
Nov 11, 2012
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Mûnich , Germany
Subq is just under the skin. So ure depositing a pocket of oil between skin and muscle? That's a first for me. I know u can use slin pins for site im injections bit never AAS subq . Anyone post anywhere I can see that's ok to subq AAS ?
 

Brandon91

Registered User
Dec 7, 2012
65
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England
My 3 favourite sites are Delts, chest and Biceps with a 5/8 orange

Quads I use sparingly since hitting a nerve isn't a nice feeling and I avoid Glutes due to the awkwardness of jabbing it on your own

Will try sub-q eventually but for now I don't feel as though I need to open that site
 

Brandon91

Registered User
Dec 7, 2012
65
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England
Subq is just under the skin. So ure depositing a pocket of oil between skin and muscle? That's a first for me. I know u can use slin pins for site im injections bit never AAS subq . Anyone post anywhere I can see that's ok to subq AAS ?

Some TRT docs are using sub-q, that's what there saying over on some of the UK forums
 

Brandon91

Registered User
Dec 7, 2012
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England
Seems weird or odd to me. Anything I ever got from
My hrt dr says IM only.. Post a uk read if u can.


Al-Futaisi AM, Al-Zakwani IS, Almahrezi AM, Morris D. Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report. Saudi Med J 2006;27(12):1843-6. http://ipac.kacst.edu.sa/eDoc/2006/161440_1.pdf


OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low doses of subcutaneous testosterone in hypogonadal men since the intramuscular route, which is the most widely used form of testosterone replacement therapy, is inconvenient to many patients.


METHODS: All men with primary and secondary hypogonadism attending the reproductive endocrine clinic at Royal Victoria Hospital, Monteral, Quebec, Canada, were invited to participate in the study. Subjects were enrolled from January 2002 till December 2002. Patients were asked to self-administer weekly low doses of testosterone enanthate using 0.5 ml insulin syringe.



RESULTS: A total of 22 patients were enrolled in the study. The mean trough was 14.48 +/- 3.14 nmol/L and peak total testosterone was 21.65 +/- 7.32 nmol/L. For the free testosterone the average trough was 59.94 +/- 20.60 pmol/L and the peak was 85.17 +/- 32.88 pmol/L. All of the patients delivered testosterone with ease and no local reactions were reported.



CONCLUSION: Therapy with weekly subcutaneous testosterone produced serum levels that were within the normal range in 100% of patients for both peak and trough levels. This is the first report, which demonstrated the efficacy of delivering weekly testosterone using this cheap, safe, and less painful subcutaneous route.



NB: the low doses it refers to was an average of 55, with a max of 100mg.
NB 2: Obviously this is a very low dose, but it makes you wonder how effective it would be for doses up to 500mg (or 2x 250mg since subQ spots are plentiful). Could be an easy alternative for those who aren't keen on intramuscular injections
 

Brandon91

Registered User
Dec 7, 2012
65
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England
Subcutaneous Administration of Testosterone
These two articles shows that subc injections of AAS are quite viable alternative for IM injections.

Quote:
STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED
WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE
INJECTIONS

M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang
Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,
Hamilton, ON, Canada

Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous
(SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however, its physiological effects are unclear.

We therefore investigated the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using
SC therapy.

Patients and methods: Between May and September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving 10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism. Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for 41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with
testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL 200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks. Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration is not officially approved by Health Canada. T levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels were measured however; the week 12 data are still being collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit 0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l (p¼0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T (25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1 (27.46+12.91 nmol/l).

Patients tolerated this therapy with no adverse effects.

Conclusions: A once-week SC injection of 50–100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further evaluation.


Quote:
Saudi Med J. 2006 Dec;27(12):1843-6

Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report.

Al-Futaisi AM, Al-Zakwani IS, Almahrezi AM, Morris D.
Department of Medicine, College of Medicine & Health Sciences, PO Box 35, Postal Code 123, Al-Khod, Sultanate of Oman. Tel. +968 99475401. Tel/Fax. +968 24413419. E-mail: [email protected].

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the effect of low doses of subcutaneous testosterone in hypogonadal men since the intramuscular route, which is the most widely used form of testosterone replacement therapy, is inconvenient to many patients.

METHODS: All men with primary and secondary hypogonadism attending the reproductive endocrine clinic at Royal Victoria Hospital, Monteral, Quebec, Canada, were invited to participate in the study.

Subjects were enrolled from January 2002 till December 2002. Patients were asked to self-administer weekly low doses of testosterone enanthate using 0.5 ml insulin syringe. RESULTS: A total of 22 patients were enrolled in the study. The mean trough was 14.48 +/- 3.14 nmol/L and peak total testosterone was 21.65 +/- 7.32 nmol/L. For the free testosterone the average trough was 59.94 +/- 20.60 pmol/L and the peak was 85.17 +/- 32.88 pmol/L. All of the patients delivered testosterone with ease and no local reactions were reported.

CONCLUSION: Therapy with weekly subcutaneous testosterone produced serum levels that were within the normal range in 100% of patients for both peak and trough levels. This is the first report, which demonstrated the efficacy of delivering weekly testosterone using this cheap, safe, and less painful subcutaneous route.
 

omegachewy

Registered User
Dec 8, 2012
568
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0
subq i only use for peps. with oils there's too much risk of abscess.
Oh and btw, theres no such thing as "spot treating" with esterfied aas. thats kinda the point of an ester. esterase will slowly do its job in the blood and give test as it goes. so, in summary
Always IM
Subq for most peps-most
No such thing as spot treatment with esterfied aas.
 

Ironbuilt

Banned
Nov 11, 2012
8,353
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0
Mûnich , Germany
Ok Brandon, Well i learn something new everyday.. So it's sayin basically test nothing like deca , tren , and all the good stuff. And low mg.Any American studies? Thanks for posting brutha..

And omega I'm with you on all this....
 
Last edited:

vpiedu

AnaSCI VIP / Donating Member
Oct 31, 2012
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Oh and btw, theres no such thing as "spot treating"

there is no direct effect of the gear locally but, there is the benefit of pinning muscles directly to improve size and shape and yes spot injecting does work from the amount of oil you put into the muscle sorta like syntherol but not as dramatic but it does work and it is permanent.

VP
 

Brandon91

Registered User
Dec 7, 2012
65
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0
England
Ok Brandon, Well i learn something new everyday.. So it's sayin basically test nothing like deca , tren , and all the good stuff. And low mg.Any American studies? Thanks for posting brutha..

And omega I'm with you on all this....

Those are the only studies I could find mate, some guys say they use subq for ED small doses of tren ace to keep the blood levels stable, some guys get lumps from subq so personally I wouldn't do it unless it was a water based injection
 

vpiedu

AnaSCI VIP / Donating Member
Oct 31, 2012
763
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there is no direct effect of the gear locally but, there is the benefit of pinning muscles directly to improve size and shape and yes spot injecting does work from the amount of oil you put into the muscle sorta like syntherol but not as dramatic but it does work and it is permanent.

VP

just for clarification im referring to IM injection, and i am using 30g 1/2" slin pin and i can tell a difference with spot injections.

VP
 

omegachewy

Registered User
Dec 8, 2012
568
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0
woah, no. you are comparing apples and kumquats here. syntherol is used for spot treatment and it does a damn good job for fascia stretching, but the principle behind that is to INCREASE in volume to enhance the stretch, not the same thing again and again as with aas. syntherol is also thicker, taking longer to disipate (not sure if i spelled that correctly)
 

Brandon91

Registered User
Dec 7, 2012
65
0
0
England
Winnies the the only aas I've heard that does have benefits for site im pins..
Nothin else IMO . To each his own and I learned something new ..

I've been seeing some posts around about esterless water based steroids have site growth potential such as test suspension, methyl tren, injectable dbol/anadrol

People are saying because it's water based and has no Esther it acts locally first
 

Ironbuilt

Banned
Nov 11, 2012
8,353
0
0
Mûnich , Germany
Whoa brandon , never seen a waterbased dbol or anadrol unless an oral type suspension you put in your mouth. Test no ester (Tne) is in oil, test suspension like you say is in an aquious solution both of which I know people do for site injection at low mg doses. Too high a mg and the pip(post injection pain) is terrible especially in the smaller muscle groups, but there is always the one person who loves pain..
 

Brandon91

Registered User
Dec 7, 2012
65
0
0
England
Whoa brandon , never seen a waterbased dbol or anadrol unless an oral type suspension you put in your mouth. Test no ester (Tne) is in oil, test suspension like you say is in an aquious solution both of which I know people do for site injection at low mg doses. Too high a mg and the pip(post injection pain) is terrible especially in the smaller muscle groups, but there is always the one person who loves pain..

BSI labs are doing a few blends of water based, with mtren, susp and dbol in them, all injectable