People having enough......

DRD1- The government never stole this guys land. He is allowing his cattle to graze on Federal land without paying grazing fee's. He has been doing this for 20 yrs and every court has ruled against him. Then you and AM are celebrating this guy threatening police officers with guns because he doesn't want to pay his taxes. This guy is a welfare queen and not a patriot.

Slate, I live in NV. The Feds "own" 87% of the state. So only 13% is in private hands. The deal between the feds and the ranchers at one time was a fair deal. In 1993, the feds changed the rules on the ranchers and it's been a war between them since. Bundy is not the only rancher like this...they all are. My wife dated a rancher's son once. Same exact story. Now remember, the BLM's the ones who decided to show up armed for war. This was before the militias and whatnot showed up. Bundy does not recognize the feds as having any power over him. I agree with him 100%. The original western treaties promised that the states would have control over their land, not the feds. But every year, the federal government gets bigger and bigger. Believe me, you don't want that. Do me a favor Slate, and look up the history of the Soviet Union and read about communism. That's your assignment for the weekend. Now you may be a democrat or whatever. I myself could be called a right-wing extremist. I don't care about that. I'm for freedom first and foremost. I don't know what person in his right mind wouldn't be for that. I wish we had some leaders that had a hair on their ass and would speak out against this ever-growing threat. A big, intrusive government is never a good thing.

Ok so now we can have a civilized debate about this. Cliven Bundy and yourself may not recognize that the Feds have any power of him but that doesn't mean that it's not true. I might not recognize that the federal government has any power to tax me but that doesn't mean that i still don't owe taxes. Every court has ruled against him. No lawyer would take his case because they know they can't win. There are ways to change the law. Threatening government agents isn't one of them. And there has been a long history of threatening violence against the government coming from the Bundy Ranch. That's why the came with weapons. The government isn't looking to shoot ranchers for no reason. The government can do whatever they want to with THEIR land. Bundy doesn't own it and never has. It's no different that him allowing his cattle to come graze on your land without paying you. He is a law breaker. Plain and simple

Slate23 said:

Ok so now we can have a civilized debate about this. Cliven Bundy and yourself may not recognize that the Feds have any power of him but that doesn't mean that it's not true. I might not recognize that the federal government has any power to tax me but that doesn't mean that i still don't owe taxes. Every court has ruled against him. No lawyer would take his case because they know they can't win. There are ways to change the law. Threatening government agents isn't one of them. And there has been a long history of threatening violence against the government coming from the Bundy Ranch. That's why the came with weapons. The government isn't looking to shoot ranchers for no reason. The government can do whatever they want to with THEIR land. Bundy doesn't own it and never has. It's no different that him allowing his cattle to come graze on your land without paying you. He is a law breaker. Plain and simple

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So it's federal land because they say so. So tomorrow when they come and take your possessions away in the name of the State, you'll be OK with that? That's what communism is. Every court has ruled against him? Your right. Judges decide everything now, not the people. Look at the gay marriage issue. You say there are ways to change the law. How? People all over the country VOTED to decide marriage was between a man and a woman. Now judges all over the country are going against the will of the people and overturning their decisions. I'm sorry, but this country doesn't have a chance in hell in surviving at this rate. Activist judges are one of the biggest problems. They've lied to you and me in believing our votes actually matter.

Slate23 said:

Ok so now we can have a civilized debate about this. Cliven Bundy and yourself may not recognize that the Feds have any power of him but that doesn't mean that it's not true. I might not recognize that the federal government has any power to tax me but that doesn't mean that i still don't owe taxes. Every court has ruled against him. No lawyer would take his case because they know they can't win. There are ways to change the law. Threatening government agents isn't one of them. And there has been a long history of threatening violence against the government coming from the Bundy Ranch. That's why the came with weapons. The government isn't looking to shoot ranchers for no reason. The government can do whatever they want to with THEIR land. Bundy doesn't own it and never has. It's no different that him allowing his cattle to come graze on your land without paying you. He is a law breaker. Plain and simple

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You know slate at one time our founding fathers were called traitors....so I guess its good you call him a law breaker...man if your ok with what our government is becoming then I seriously dont know what to say to you....I mean Im only 37 years old and just the things ive seen in my time turn my stomach. You said they didnt want to shoot the ranchers that may be true but l8ke stated above their the ones that showed up in tactical gear sporting automatic weapons and sniper rifles and fucking threatening everyone all the people did was respond in kind....but i believe your right they didnt want to shoot them they just wanted to exert their power onto them and take the mans property(his cattle) do you know what 1000 head of cattle is worth not to mention the statement it makes Lot of times when the government shows up on a citizens property it isnt about killing its about submission plain and simple killing comes later

When the state of Nevada agreed to become part of the Union, they allowed the Federal government to take ownership of this land. The US didnt steal the land from Cliven Bundy. It was never his. And he like everyone else in this country has to follow the law or pay the consequences. The way people change laws is by voting. It's by convincing people to agree with your position. If I want to pay less in taxes, then I'll vote for politicians that agree with that position. I don't threaten to kill innocent people for enforcing the law.

Srd1 - It's about following the law. They took his cattle because he owed over a million dollars in fees. Just like the IRS can take your property if you owe unpaid taxes. So if I decided to not pay taxes, would you show up at my door to defend me from the federal government?

Slate23 said:

DRD1- The government never stole this guys land. He is allowing his cattle to graze on Federal land without paying grazing fee's. He has been doing this for 20 yrs and every court has ruled against him. Then you and AM are celebrating this guy threatening police officers with guns because he doesn't want to pay his taxes. This guy is a welfare queen and not a patriot.

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No but they attempted to take his cattle.....I was also speaking in general to the power that bothe the state and federal governments exert over their citizens..... when I was a kid we had a family friend his land and house were paid for cause he worked his ass off his whole life to do it....long story short the man had a massive heart attack wich left him unable to work got behind on the property taxes and the fucking government kicked this 70 year old disabled man a vetran no less and his wife out in the street and auctioned his house.....and you seriously think the government having that kind of power to do such a horrible thing is ok? Guess you think the man just should have figured out a way to pay our greedy wasteful government the money he "owed" them right? You realize you never truelly own your property right cause even after you work your ass off to pay for your property you have to pay the government a lease payment for life(property tax)? Why should we even have to pay property tax are we paying our government for the right to own our property?

Slate23 said:

Srd1 - It's about following the law. They took his cattle because he owed over a million dollars in fees. Just like the IRS can take your property if you owe unpaid taxes. So if I decided to not pay taxes, would you show up at my door to defend me from the federal government?

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If your justified in doing so then your damn right I would!

Slate23 said:

When the state of Nevada agreed to become part of the Union, they allowed the Federal government to take ownership of this land. The US didnt steal the land from Cliven Bundy. It was never his. And he like everyone else in this country has to follow the law or pay the consequences. The way people change laws is by voting. It's by convincing people to agree with your position. If I want to pay less in taxes, then I'll vote for politicians that agree with that position. I don't threaten to kill innocent people for enforcing the law.

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You buy the story of ss soldiers were just enforcing the law doing their jobs when they rounded up all the jewish people for extermination....just blindly following or doing something because its what a politician said was the law is insanity it prob the fastest route to being enslaved i can think of..and if you seriously think that our elected officials vote the will of the people these days your insane brother they do what makes them the most money period and if you elect a good person into office to make a change they are all to quickly corrupted and ruined so it really doesnt matter anymore...I mean from bush sr on i seriously have had to make my decision on who i voted for for president by who i felt would do the least amount of damage not the best man cause there werent any but the one i felt would fuck my country up the least and that sir is pathetic and a sad reality

Slate, if you use gear, which I'm sure you do, you are in violation of the Anabolic Steroid Control Act 1990. You my brother are a lawbreaker and an outlaw...just like Cliven Bundy. Do you see my point? It's all about freedom bro. That's all.

Srd1- You really want to compare what the Nazi's did to the Jews as what the government is doing to Bundy? Bundy never owned the land. Its not his. If he wants to graze his cattle on the the land then he has to pay fees like everyone else. Your friends story has nothing in common with Bundy. It's not his land.
And yes Dorian, when I use gear I break the law. I also speed which is also illegal. But if I get caught doing these things, then I'll take my punishment like a man. I don't pretend that the government doesn't exist and then threaten to shoot the police officer coming to arrest me. We don't have freedom to steal. Which is exactly what Bundy is doing. All you agree that the land he lets his cattle graze on isnt his own. How is that not stealing?

Then why don't you admit that the whole system is broken and needs fixed? The feds told Bundy in 1993 that he could only graze 150 cattle on the land. This would put him out of business. He has continued grazing more cattle on the land than that. They changed the rules for what? A desert tortoise. Apparently the cattle are a threat to this critter. Don't you question why the feds own so much of my state? Don't you question why some gov't. c*cksucker can dictate to you and me whatever they want and be our overlord? Does this make any sense to you? Because you're not making any sense to me. Some people just like being told what to do I guess.

Slate23 said:

Srd1- You really want to compare what the Nazi's did to the Jews as what the government is doing to Bundy? Bundy never owned the land. Its not his. If he wants to graze his cattle on the the land then he has to pay fees like everyone else. Your friends story has nothing in common with Bundy. It's not his land.
And yes Dorian, when I use gear I break the law. I also speed which is also illegal. But if I get caught doing these things, then I'll take my punishment like a man. I don't pretend that the government doesn't exist and then threaten to shoot the police officer coming to arrest me. We don't have freedom to steal. Which is exactly what Bundy is doing. All you agree that the land he lets his cattle graze on isnt his own. How is that not stealing?

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Slate I am not comparing what happened to bundy to my examples my examples were merely examples of our government exerting power and authority when they had no right to. Im comparing the ss soldiers to your statement of the police getting killed for just doing their job or blindly following an unjust law just because its the law. I think that ranchers have been grazing their cattle on that land for a hundred years or so and the goverment showing up armed to the gills threatening people and taking his cattle wasnt their right and it was a gross misuse of authority.

:action-smiley-030:

Slate23 said:

Srd1- You really want to compare what the Nazi's did to the Jews as what the government is doing to Bundy? Bundy never owned the land. Its not his. If he wants to graze his cattle on the the land then he has to pay fees like everyone else. Your friends story has nothing in common with Bundy. It's not his land.
And yes Dorian, when I use gear I break the law. I also speed which is also illegal. But if I get caught doing these things, then I'll take my punishment like a man. I don't pretend that the government doesn't exist and then threaten to shoot the police officer coming to arrest me. We don't have freedom to steal. Which is exactly what Bundy is doing. All you agree that the land he lets his cattle graze on isnt his own. How is that not stealing?

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Your ok with the government telling you what you can and cant put in your own body telling you what best for you? Youll just take their false punishment like a man Seriously?:banghead:

We are a nation of laws. And a democracy. We don't get to just pick and choose what laws to follow. I don't think every law is a good law but to have a working society we have to have laws. If you were arrested for gear, I'm sure you might fight it in court but would you threaten the judge with a gun or take the punishment like a man?

And it doesn't matter if I or you think the government owns to much land. The reality is is that they do own it and Bundy doesn't. So if he wants to use someone else's land then he has to pay. Why do you think Bundy has a right to do whatever he wants on land he doesn't own? Do I get to go to your house and take whatever I want?

The government used the threat of violence and guns to drive home their point bundy's group just returned the treatment in kind is it ok for the government to defend their rights with violence but the people shouldnt? And ya brother we do pick and choose what laws we want to follow wether it be gear, speeding or whatever its called free will and i dont know about you but thats something that will never be taken from me

I hold a concealed weapons permit. I got pulled over one day for speeding officer asked me if I was carrying i told him of course...he then tells me that he doesnt agree with concealed weapon permits i told him i agreed i shouldnt have to spend 300 dollars for the permit and sit thru a 12 hour class that cost another 100 or so to be able to defend my life against someone that wants to harm me or my family i said i believe its my god givin right.....he then says no i mean average citizens shouldnt be allowed to carry a concealed firearm i looked at him and said 1st off when it comes to firearms i am the furthest thing from average you will probabaly meet in your lifetime secondly whats that glock 19 doing on your hip he says it there to protect my life i then said so average citizens dont have the same right our life worth less than yours? Dude was speechless didnt write me a ticket either believe it or not.

I just don't agree with you that the government threatened violence without just cause. There has been a long history of threats towards the government by those ranchers. And answer my question. If you were arrested for gear or speeding would you threaten the officer with a gun for trying to take away what you believe to be your rights?