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Muscle Media 2000 of Old
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Muscle Media 2000 of Old - 02-11-2012, 12:49 PM

By: Will Brinks

Looking Back On The Muscle Media 2000 days of Bodybuilding


Talk about a blast from the past! I was digging through some old boxes of office stuff, and found this Muscle Media 2000 audio tape interview I had done back in the mid 90s. I recall I had done a two or three part series, but I forget exactly which. Unless you were part of all that ďback in the day,Ē itís hard to convey to the reader how much things have changed since then. At that time, Muscle Media 2000 (MM2K) was THE magazine of the time, and by far the most influential. Bill Phillips and crew Ė which included yours truly Ė set the standard with MM2k with solid info people could really use to transform their body. They also had an audio tape series of interviews with various people on all manner of topics. These audio tapes were a separate subscription from the magazine and were very popular I recall.

MM2K was a total departure from all the other mags at the time, and writers like Dan Duchaine, Charles Poliquin, Mike Mooney, Dr. X, Bill Phillips and many others broke new ground where other publications feared to tread. This was truly the height of bodybuilding, which shortly after, took a nose dive due to various factors, both social/political and financial.

To this day, I still have people mention the article called the ďAnabolic round-tableĒ discussion myself, Dan Duchaine, and Bruce Kneller published. We discussed all sorts of stuff that would never get published today as PC trend took overÖChrist on a stick, I hate the PC nonsense that permeates the media Ė and general society Ė these days, but thatís another rant for another dayÖ.Finding these tapes really brings back some memories! I bet some readers here subscribed to the MM2K audio series and remember them fondly. Oh, the stories I could tellÖ

Will Brink
December 2, 2009 by Will Brink
The Muscle Media Audio Tape Series and other Ramblings
(**PICTURE ATTACHED)

Iím a bit of a pack rat: I still have every MM2K, MMI, and the many other publications I have been featured in, in boxes in my basement. I found the Anabolic Round-table issue and took a quick pick..I got a lot O boxes! Some day I really need to go through themÖ

Remember, mid 90s, the Ďnet existed, but was nothing like it is today. Most people had dial up connections, so streaming audio was a clunky process at best. Large scale inexpensive CD burning didnít exist either I recall, so audio tapes were what most used. Iím sure these great interviews exist on the Ďnet someplace as streaming audio, but that was new technology at the time and 56k dial up modems Ė with a small number using DSL Ė were the norm, so audio tapes were used. Itís funny, the mid 90s was not long ago, but looking at these cassettes looks like virtual stone- age technology at this point!

Thatís my brief look at the golden age of Muscle Media 2000/MM2K and the small roll I played in it. Time sure goes by fast!
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Feb 1996 - Jul 1999
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Feb 1996 - Jul 1999 - 02-11-2012, 01:25 PM

MM2K went through some changes in 1999 and was never the same...Here are some covers from FEB 1996 - JUL 1999, see who remembers these.....
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Questions answered by Muscle Media 2000's steroid Guru, Dan Duchaine
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Questions answered by Muscle Media 2000's steroid Guru, Dan Duchaine - 02-11-2012, 01:39 PM

Question : I'm a fighter as well as a bodybuilder. I gained 15 pounds using primobolan tabs, and I'm happy. However, next year I'll be competing in kickboxing. Can I pop one or two aggression pills before a fight? I'm normally laid back, and it's affecting my fighting instinct.

Dan "Guru" Duchaine : Before I answer your question, I'd like to tell you that this is the kind of question I really dislike. The bodybuilding subculture doesn't need any more Type A individuals acting like assholes. Anyway, most of the benign, non-androgenic steroids have been quietly removed from the commercial market . The most plentiful steroids on the black market are the various testosterones, which are not considered anabolics but rather classic androgens.

There have always been some individuals who actually crave increased aggressiveness, and such behavior has been condoned within their peer group. The obvious examples are the overt contact sports like boxing. But football players (when they were not being tested), law enforcement personnel, and military recruits all requested androgenic steroids when I was a steroid dealer ten years ago.

As to this specific question: yes, there is such a thing as an "aggression pill." But I wonder if much of the "effects" are due to placebo. There has been a recent scientific study which validates this possibility. The obvious choice for Kickassabol is sublingual methyltestosterone, since it's an androgen and has an activity level of only about 20 minutes. Some powerlifters I know would pop them like PEZ just before each lift.

The next choice is the trade-named Halotestin. The generic name is fluoxymesterone. In its favor (or maybe not), it's more androgenic than methyltestosterone. But it's not in sublingual form, so absorption is slow. This is avail able in Mexico as Stenox in two-milligram tabs. I could cautiously recommend 10 milligrams of this drug, but it really doesn't get into the circulation swiftly like sublingual methyltestosterone does.

The current state of the art for commercial androgens is a liquid veterinary or al preparation called Checque Drops (mibolerone). An eyedropper is included in the packaging. Checque Drops is the most androgenic substance currently being sold. It's so powerful that it's taken in micrograms, rather than the usual milligrams. It's used in animal medicine to prevent female dogs from going into heat, and it's usually added to the dog's food.

The powerlifters who use Checque Drops use two full droppers, taken orally. Although some pain-tolerant individuals do inject the liquid, which is mostly propylene glycol, a solvent, it causes tremendous burning at the injection site. It also doesn't do wonders for your stomach lining, either, which is why we have seen a limit of two droppers full. I can't quite say if Checque Drops is terribly anabolic, because I have yet to see any powerlifter or bodybuilder use large amounts of it. However, we do know that Checque Drops will latch onto the steroid receptor tighter than even testosterone. Usually, the high-affinity androgens like dihydrotestosterone (DHT) or Proviron don't have any anabolic activity. In the mid-'80's, the black market DDR designer steroids relabeled Checque Drops as dihydrolone and sold it as a so-called East German injectable. The chief side effect was gynecomastia.

Although Checque Drops doesn't convert to estrogen, it's one of the very few steroids that cross reacts with progesterone (the other "female" hormone) receptors. It does not block the actions of progesterone but actually imparts progesterone-like activity at the receptor. So continual use of Checque Drops may cause swelling of the (male) breast tissue, just as estrogen does.

Even now, Checque Drops are used for powerlifting out-of-competition training. Within 20 minutes or so, 2 droppers of Checque Drops instill a noticeable psychological effect. So Checque Drops is my candidate for Kickassabol. But beside s the fact that its use and possession is illegal (even if you're a horny dog), I don't recommend it because the androgens are what usually generate the side effects that lead to all the horror stories that average people associate wi th steroid use.

I want to use 3 sustanon 250's a week. Should I space the shots out, or can I inject all of it at once? The sustanons are in preloaded syringes, and the needles are pretty big. How do I transfer t he contents into another syringe?

There is no benefit to spacing out the injections. A total oil volume of three cubic centimeters is not an especially large injection. And Sustanon, which is a blend of various durations of testosterone, is so long acting that there is no "magic" in spacing the injections throughout the week. The standard Mexican Sustanon preload uses a 20-gauge needle. (For readers who are unfamiliar with needle sizes, the smaller the number, the bigger the needle diameter.) Most oil-based drugs are injected with a 21-gauge needle. The smaller the gauge (the higher the number), the more finger pressure needed to force the oil through the needle.

In practical terms, in a standard 3-cc syringe size, most steroid users can force oil through a 23-gauge needle by pushing with one hand. Some individuals can use a so-called vitamin needle of 25 gauge, but it entails using both hands to push the syringe plunger. Most vitamin needles do not use a screw-on connection between the needle and the syringe, and trying to force the oils through this combination generates so much fluid pressure (think of hydraulics) that usually the individual blows the syringe off the needle, and he's left with a needle sticking out of his ass, an empty syringe in his hand, and the oily steroids pewed about onto the worst of places. When I self-surrendered to prison in 1989, I was trying to do the same vitamin needle stunt outside the prison gate inside my friend's new Mercedes and sprayed 3-ccs of Sustanon all over his beautiful Palomino leather interior.

But you're right, the 20-gauge Sustanon needle is damn big. And since you're insisting on using three preloads a week, that would create three very big holes that will accrue muscle scar tissue. Here's how I used to do it, but first, I suppose I should give the standard warning of don't try this at home: my preference was a 23-gauge, 1-inch length. I would remove the plunger and hold it in my teeth. I held the empty syringe in my left hand, and I carefully plunged the Sustanon preload's contents into the open syringe top. I emptied two more Sustanons into the syringe, which filled it to the 3-cc limit. I then carefully and gently replaced the plunger right at the very edge of the syringe rim. I didn't want to push the plunger in too much at this point because I'd dribble steroid out of the needle end. Once the plunger was in position, I turned the syringe upside down (plunger pointing down). I gave the syringe a few shakes downward, and that moved the trapped air up! to the needle end. At this point I could push the plunger in more, removing the air from the syringe. And then I was ready to finalize my felony.

I've read that testosterone has great IGF-1 generating abilities, and Deca Durabolin is not nearly as good. Should I avoid Deca if I want to get maximum growth?

Testosterone is a more potent anabolic than Deca Durabolin (nandrolone decanoate). It might be that a steroid's ability to aromatize into estrogen is tied into the IGF-1 elevation. Testosterone has more conversion to estrogen than Deca Durabolin does, even though Deca Durabolin is made from an estrogen . We know that the use of the estrogen blocker Nolvadex lowers IGF-1. And we knew years ago that something about Nolvadex was inhibiting muscle growth because I received many comments that bodybuilders grew better without Nolvadex.

So should you avoid a steroid which has less side effects than testosterone in your quest for ultimate growth? It depends on how old you are. From AIDS research, we now know that testosterone depresses the immune system. Deca Durabolin does the opposite (but not to any great degree). My recommendation is that from middle age onward (pick an age, I use age 40 as the starting point), men should use Deca Durabolin instead of testosterone, even in situations of testosterone replacement. We also should be realistic. After a certain age, both growth and IGF-1 are not secreted at their previous youthful levels. So does it matter if Deca Durabolin reduces IGF-1 production if normal levels in middle age and onward are already insignificant? No research on that question has been done. I have a feeling that IGF-1 production declines so much by middle age that its suppression from Deca Durabolin would have no effect.

Another point to make about testosterone use -- we don't have a blood test that can tell us which individuals are going to lose their hair from testosterone use. I have a close friend who is 60 years old and uses 600 mg of testosterone a week and has a full head of hair. And he has been using various steroids, including testosterone, for close to 30 years. As we can see in the professional bodybuilding ranks, some bodybuilders are losing a lot of hair to be able to compete at the over 250-pound body-weight mark. It would be interesting to interview a number of balding bodybuilders and ask them if they wished they had avoided the various baldness-causing steroids. Is the loss of hair just a small price to pay for greatness? That probably depends on if the individual has any kind of life outside of bodybuilding. If the person's whole self and peer esteem is completely centered around his body "looking awesome," then I imagine that hair loss is no big deal. But remember, when the person stops steroid use and muscle size decreases, the hair, of course, doesn't grow back.

One of the arguments against steroid use is that all the gains I would make would disappear once I stopped using steroids. Is this true?

Yes, eventually, virtually all of the gains from steroid use would disappear. However, it would take years for that to happen. This is one of the reasons football players have not been getting smaller since drug testing began . Off-season, players don't get tested, and they can accrue enough muscle mass to "coast" though the playing season.

The same logic applies with drug-tested bodybuilding shows. A bodybuilder could swear on a polygraph that he hadn't used steroids for a year. Swell, except, during the year of being "clean," a good amount of steroid-generated muscle will still be there. Steroids are still the anabolic bargain. In the studies of geriatrics using growth hormone, all of the beneficial effects induced from the growth hormone went away within a matter of weeks. I predict that the same fleeting anabolism will happen with IGF-1. Clenbuterol's effects diminished even more rapidly. Many doctors don't want to admit it, but limited steroid use of a yearly, eight-week cycle would have virtually no adverse side effects and would probably vastly improve the health of the individual through the rest of the year. It would be interesting to put a group of bodybuilders on a mild short cycle and then track the decreases of muscle mass over the months after the end of the cycle. These results wouldn't surprise me, but I don't think the anti-steroid crowd would like to hear that steroid gains do last for a long time.

I've been using some liquid GHB from two different sources. Both taste bad, but one tastes more like paint thinner than the other. The powder never tasted this bad. What gives?

As much as the FDA doesn't want gamma hydroxybuterate (GHB) being made, it's an absurdly simple compound to make. Just add water and lye to the lactone solvent, adjust the pH to 7, and it's done. And no, I won't give you the recipe again, and I won't tell you where to buy the lactone. The toughest part of the granular GHB refining process was turning the liquid into a solid. The drying gets rid of all the trace solvents that impart the petrochemical smell. The various new (underground) GHB producers don't have the esoteric equipment to dry the liquid. What is the difference between the different-tasting liquids you allegedly have? The fouler one of the two probably has a pH of slightly under seven.

A well-made liquid GHB is no more toxic than the dry form. And overall, GHB has virtually no toxicity. The problem is how to know if the particular GHB is a good one. The best you can do is scrutinize the packaging. One GHB on the black market has both contraindications and research listings included with the packaging. But don't get too worked up about GHB. It's not really an ergogenic aid. The corresponding rise of cortisol negates any positive effect caused by whatever slight growth hormone may have been caused by GHB use. GHB is a (mostly benign) recreational drug. Those who claim otherwise are just in denial.

I want to go to Mexico to get some Metformin which is available as Mellitron. Is this a good idea? Or can you suggest something better?

I've mentioned recently that the FDA has approved metformin, a potent insulin agonist, for treatment of Type II Diabetes. The trade name is Glucophage. To remind you: metformin would be more potent in improving insulin sensitivity than either chromium or vanadyl sulfate. I think the problem will be that most American doctors will not prescribe Glucophage to a healthy athlete.

Should you acquire Mellitron in Mexico? No. Unfortunately, in scrutinizing th e Mellitron closely, I found that along with the metformin, there are also 125 milligrams of another drug, clorpropamide. This particular drug increases insulin secretion. This is something most people wouldn't want. We want to improve insulin sensitivity and at the same time lower insulin secretion. Mellitron won't lower insulin but increase it. However, if a bodybuilder uses injectable growth hormone, Mellitron would work well along with it. Large amounts of growth hormone make the receptors insulin resistant, and a slight insulin increase would be beneficial. Most metformins available in Europe would be the isolated compound.

I was steroid shopping in Tijuana and found some small blue bottles of methandrostenolone made by Ludwig Heun in West Germany (at least, that's what the bottle said). Is this stuff real?

No. It's counterfeit. I happen to know the entire history of this counterfeit because I designed the bottle, label, and tablets.

Starting in 1985, I worked closely with a Tijuana pharmaceutical manufacturing company called Laboratory Milano. For many years, Laboratory Milano produced generic medications, primarily antibiotics, for Mexican drugstores. The laboratory was named Milano because the owner, Juan Machlis, purchased all of the raw materials through a procurement company based in Milano, Italy. Whenever a drug was needed, the procurement company would find a source of it and usually charge between 10% to 15% over wholesale cost.

When brand-name Dianabol and generic methandrostenolone were removed from the American market, several companies began making counterfeit versions, but all of them had problems. Some of the pills were so poorly made and so loosely held together that you could use them as blackboard writing chalk. Others were good but elusive, i.e., hard to find.

About the same time, an Indian crime family based in England began repackaging the Indian Pronabol 5 (methandrostenolone) tablets into small white bottles and labeled them as if the product were from Ludwig Heun Gmb H KG, West Germany. This was a very nice product, and I remember going to various hotel rooms near the Los Angeles airport to buy thousands of bottles from a bearded, turbaned old gentleman who looked like a diplomat. But as nice as the product was, I could never depend on consistent shipments.

So I persuaded Laboratory Milano to manufacture methandrostenolone to my specifications. I designed a tiny light blue bottle with a white metal cap. I supplied the Indian/English Ludwig Heun bottle label so Milano could copy it. I picked this label for two reasons: 1) On the black market, the brand had established itself as a good, reliable product, and 2) I wanted to avoid any ties or references to Mexican manufacture simply because, at the time, most steroid users distrusted any Mexican steroid product. The unfounded assertion was th at the Mexican drugs were not as potent as the European versions. Besides, calling it "Duchainabol" was out of the question.

Methandrostenolone was the first steroid produced by Laboratory Milano, and we made sure each tablet always contained at least six milligrams of the steroid. The cost for the raw materials and packaging was only $0.50 per unit, but we sold it for $4.50. After that, we made counterfeit versions (always with real steroids in them) of Lemmon testosterone cypionate and Lemmon nandrolone decanoate. This was a screw up on my part because testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate were never made by Lemmon. I unknowingly had bought counterfeit steroids to duplicate!

The original source of our methandrostenolone was from Germany. We also purchased oxandrolone from Searle in England. This was ironic because Laboratory Milano and I duplicated the Searle Anavar exactly (the tablet mold cost us $10,000) and sold it for half the cost of what Searle sold it for wholesale to pharmacies. Searle became so frustrated over this (we sold the counterfeit Anavar to American pharmacies) that the Anavar bottle size was doubled to differentiate between ours and theirs.

All the steroid tablets were smuggled in bulk across the border and dropped off at various motel rooms around San Diego. The bottles and labels were made in Tijuana and legally exported to America. Mexican women would count tablets, load them into the bottles, and box them in packages of 100.

I stopped working with Laboratory Milano in the fall of 1986. From that point on, the company cranked up production and flooded the American black market. Just before the arrest of the major "players" (myself included), Laboratory Milano produced some unusual products which I had designed. One was a methandrostenolone with a diuretic and liver antitoxin added. Others included very powerful injectable versions of oxandrolone and oxymetholone. I can honestly say that these two exotic injectables are the most potent steroids I have ever used.

Since the breakup and prosecution of the Laboratory Milano conspiracy, the company has ceased all operations. Nevertheless, some of the former employees still have the ability to produce the various bottles, labels, and tablets of the various steroids. However, none of these current counterfeits have any steroid in them, the Ludwig Heun version included. So if you see any European steroid being sold in a Mexican pharmacy, it's a counterfeit with no active steroid ingredients.

Whenever I use clenbuterol, it works great for about two weeks. After that, I can use ten tabs a day and my temperature will hardly rise. What can I do about this?

Clenbuterol is a beta-2 agonist. It attaches to the same receptor as your natural adrenaline and noradrenaline do. It has a very high bonding capacity to the adrenergic receptor. Whenever a drug fits well onto a cell receptor , the receptor becomes resistant to that drug. For example, the thermogenic effect of ephedrine seems to have a longer duration (though it's not as potent ) for two reasons: 1) ephedrine doesn't have a high receptor affinity, and 2) ephedrine is not beta-2 specific.

You might have heard about the newly discovered beta-3 receptors. The receptor is primarily a thermogenic messenger, and over half the thermogenic effect from ephedrine is from beta-3 stimulation. Although the thermogenic message is not as intense as the beta-2 message, beta-3 receptors are very resistant to down-regulation. Clenbuterol, however, has very little beta-3 stimulation.

Until some new synthetic beta-3 agonist is commercially available, the beta agonist of choice is still clenbuterol (although the stronger cimaterol is available as a research chemical in the U.S.). The rapid receptor sensitivity attenuation happens to all users, and the various dosage schemes (i.e., two days on, two days off) just aren't successful.

This attenuation and the lowering of above-normal body temperature are governed by two different mechanisms. I've written about one of them before: the shunting of T4 thyroid away from the active T3 form into the ineffective reverse-T3. Most of the thyroid in the body is the inactive T4 type. The active thyroid that actually fits onto thyroid receptors is a reduced T4, and reduced T4 occurs when one of the iodine atoms is cleaved off the molecule by a specific enzyme (deiodinase). Since we have no way of stopping the T4 from being transformed into ineffective reverse-T3 instead of

he active T3, and there's no such thing as injectable deiodinase (which would prevent the reduction), the best approach is to supplement the missing T3 with Cytomel, a synthetic T3.

The trouble is, it's likely a daily amount of Cytomel higher than 25 mcg would eventually stop the production of natural thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), and the up-regulation will take about 8 weeks. Then, when you go off Cytomel, your body's still laggin' in production of TSH. So now you know why almost everybody who stops taking thyroid (with the exception of the drug Triacana) gets fat. For eight weeks, the body doesn't need as many calories.

Up to this point, the Cytomel trick was only a partial solution. The second and major decrease of body temperature is caused by the down-regulation of the beta-2 receptor. The receptor actually is still in the cell but not in its usual place. The receptor must be at the outside of the cell surface to be available to the beta agonist. There is research showing that the antihistamine ketotifen (trade name Zaditen by Sandoz) in large dosages will up-regulate the beta-2 receptors. This is similar to the American Periactin (cyproheptadine). This class of antihistamine will cause drowsiness, hunger, and irritability, but you may think the negative symptoms are a small price to play.

Here are the particulars. Zaditen is only available in France in 1-mg capsules , 60 capsules to a box. It sells for 65.10 francs (about $12.25). Because of its appetite-stimulating and muscle-building properties, Zaditen is sold through some of the American AIDS buying clubs. The average price for it in America is $40 a box. The dose needed for the up-regulation of the beta-2 receptors is about 10 capsules (10 mg)--assuming you've been using 3 clenbuterol tablets (60 mcg) each day. Sigma Chemicals, the company that has all the bodybuilding goodies that we like but can't buy (including steroids), does sell ketotifen (the fumarate version is water soluble) in raw bulk form. Keep in mind that even when used with clenbuterol, which both reduces appetite and is more of a stimulant than caffeine, Zaditen will still cause sleepiness and hunger. Those aren't nice effects, especially if you're dieting.

Your final solution to sustain clenbuterol's action is to use both Cytomel (25 mcg) and Zaditen (10 mg) each day after using clenbuterol by itself for 2 weeks . You'll need only 60 mcg of clenbuterol for a very pronounced thermogenic effect, hypothetically speaking, of course.

I'm 45 years old, and I'm on testosterone replacement for low natural levels of testosterone--around 300-350 ng/dl. My doctor has prescribed testosterone cypionate (100 mg per week), and this has brought my testosterone level up to around 600 ng/dl. Should I switch over to your recommendation of Deca-Durabolin? Is the use of Deca-Durabolin instead of testosterone for this purpose a documented and accepted practice? One more thing: I'm using 21-gauge needles. Should I try to go to something thinner to minimize scarring?

First off, it's nice to see you've found a liberal doctor. Most M.D.'s won't consider prescribing testosterone until they see your blood level of testosterone drop below 300 ng/dl. You appear to have an unusual metabolism. Most males of your age would not realize such a high testosterone elevation on only 100 mg a week. Usually a weekly 100-mg injection of testosterone would raise blood levels 100 ng/dl, at the most. What usually happens is that as males age, the ability to convert testosterone to estrogen (with aromatase enzyme) increases. The extra testosterone injected will more readily convert to estrogen and, at the same time, down-regulate the small amount of natural testosterone being produced. I have a strong feeling that your particular metabolism doesn't manufacture very much aromatase, so the small amount of exogenous testosterone you're using has better potential, as much of it stays as testosterone and doesn't down-regulate your own supply.

Since your injected dose is quite small (only half of what the World Health Organization is recommending for FSH "follicle-stimulating hormone" down-regulation), I can't see any real benefit for you to switch over to Deca-Durabolin. Although the nandrolones have a higher androgen-receptor-binding ability than testosterone, the anabolic effect is not equal, so you might have to raise the weekly dosage to about 200 mg to equal all the positive effects of testosterone cypionate.

In many other males, more than just 100 mg a week of testosterone is needed to generate an optimal blood level of between 500-600 ng/dl. At these higher a mounts, more testosterone is converted to dihydrotestosterone (which accelerates balding and swells the prostate) and estrogen, which would further down-regulate natural testosterone secretion. In these situations, when 200 mg or more of injected testosterone is needed each week, Deca-Durabolin is a nice option, as the DHN (dihydronandrolone) variant has a lesser affinity to receptors at the prostate and hair follicles. The nandrolones also don't convert as readily to estrogen (although it's not markedly different from testosterone).

Now that we know the various mechanisms of the enzyme conversions of testosterone, an enlightened M.D. could also prescribe both Proscar (using only a quarter of a tablet) and Nolvadex (10 mg) daily and would see both a higher blood level of testosterone and a significantly smaller testosterone dosage. I've reluctantly recommended Nolvadex (the most popular anti-estrogen) simply because most M.D.'s won't believe how Cytadren (at 250 mg a day) would work better for this purpose. Of course, the upcoming supplement "Flavone X" could work for the same purpose. However, if you're counting dollars, using Deca-Durabolin would be cheaper than using the combination of testosterone, Proscar, and Nolvadex. Too bad Primobolan Depot is not approved for use in the U.S. It could be a perfect testosterone replacement as it has absolutely no conversion to either estrogen or DHT. You might have heard of a new androgen replacement called MECE. It's very androgenic, so much so, only micrograms are needed each day. This steroid is simply a non-17 alkylated version of the veterinary Checque Drops (mibolerone). I find it hard to believe that researchers are taking this steroid seriously, as mibolerone is a potent progesterone agonist, binding to progesterone receptors and imparting progesterone actions (including sensitizing breast tissue).

Deca-Durabolin, as great as it is, is not mentioned in the literature as a testosterone replacement for middle-aged men. It's recommended for women with systemic lupus (and there is published research on this). The only drawback in using Deca-Durabolin for an androgen replacement is that with extremely low natural testosterone levels (less than 150 ng/dl), there might not be enough androgen action to reestablish libido. In my case, my blood testosterone level is 370 ng/dl, and I have more than adequate libido. I would choose Deca-Durabolin over a testosterone: my hairline is borderline, so why tempt fate?

As to your inquiry about needle gauges, yes, repeated weekly injections with a 21-gauge needle will eventually generate more scar tissue than a smaller needle would. Realistically (and I've tried all the gauges), the smallest gauge needle you can actually use to self-administer is a 23 gauge (I prefer the 1 inch length). But don't be surprised when your weekly shot takes 2-3 minutes to push the plunger all the way down.

Over the summer, I purchased a few hundred tablets of metformin from a European mail-order company. I started 2,000 mg/ day (one 500-mg tab with meals 4 times a day) and experienced a severe loss of appetite. After ten days, I ceased using the drug because I began to lose weight (muscle) and strength as a result of the lower calorie intake. Do you have any thoughts on this?

I've gotten the same reports from other bodybuilders who comment on this loss of appetite. At least you got the dosage right. Most non-diabetics who use Glucophage (the American version of metformin) have been cautious with do sages and haven't felt any beneficial effects.

The conundrum is this: bringing the dosage up high enough (between 1,700 and 2,000 mg) generates better glycogen storage and a workout pump, but the loss of appetite makes it difficult to eat enough food. This food apathy is caused by metformin's slowing of gastric emptying. Such an effect would be nice to have while you're on a low-calorie diet. But on a maintenance or hyper-calorie diet, metformin would be a problem.

The simple solution is to make sure you eat calorie-dense foods. If there is a ny complaint (and it seems to be a very minor one) with the moderate to high-fa t diets (whether it be Isometric or Zone based), it usually is that the increase of dietary fat means less food to eat. This is the one instance where peanut butter is a guilt-free solution. So it seems logical that metformin and moderate-fat diets would compliment each other. Hunger from eating less carbohydrates is eliminated because of the slow release from the stomach (and from the small intestine, too), and the reduced carbohydrates will be prioritized for glycogen storage. The dietary fat is calorie dense.

If you're following a high-carb diet and won't consider switching to denser foods, the traditional approach for stimulating the appetite for athletes is the prescription antihistamine Periactin. Unfortunately, Periactin causes lethargy and irritability.

If none of the above solutions suit you, only use metformin when you're on a low-calorie diet. If you lower the dosage enough, your appetite will not be affected, but at the reduced dosage, the insulin sensitivity enhancement will be negligible.

I plan on using insulin, the Humulin R kind, and was wondering if I should take vanadyl and metformin with it ?

Vanadyl and metformin will affect the action of insulin in both good and bad ways. The good thing is less insulin is needed for the small amount of carbohydrates consumed. Increasing the effects of insulin at its lowest possible dosage is the ideal situation. the bad thing is that if you maintain the insulin dosage and food intake levels you had prior to adding vanadyl or metformin, you'd probably get some kind of hypoglycemic reaction, perhaps even go into a coma. The over-the-counter insulin is enticing because it's cheap and its usefulness is supported by stories from top professional bodybuilders. The underfunded and uninformed recreational bodybuilder, however, may suffer many adverse side effects. Even at moderately low daily dosages of Humulin R, visceral (interorgan) fat will accumulate. At best, this is cosmetically repugnant (men looking pregnant). At worst, visceral fat is associated with heart disease. This fat, at least in male bodybuilders, appears to be the last fat deposit lost when dieting.

Metformin was heralded, a few years back, as an "alternative to insulin", but neither type II diabetics nor bodybuilders have been raving about this drug. What little positive effect metformin has on insulin resistance occurs only at high dosages. We now have hopes for the next generation diabetic drug. Rezulin (troglitazone), recently available here in states. Since Rezulin's action appears to work on the insulin receptors (increasing their number) and not at the gut level like metformin, it looks like a possible bodybuilding drug. Increasing insulin receptors is a good thing, unless it happens on fat cells, too.

We don't have a formula for the reduction of insulin when using these insulin synergists. Half the usual dose? Less/more ? From my BODYOPUS experiments. I've found a glucometer isn't accurate blood glucose indicator for readings under 120 dl/ml. I wouldn't try this stack.

You're always cutting edge. What's the next bg thing in bodybuilding drugs ? I mean, beyond DNP and insulin, what floats your boat ?

Injectable, once-a-year growth vaccasines-two are being worked on. One vaccine inhibits somatostatin, which is a trace hormone, mostly secreted in the hypothalamus. Somatostatin is a growth-hormone-inhibiting factor, one of the counter hormones which stops the secretion of growth hormone. The other vaccine is an antigen that causes the sama anabolic response through the same receptor stimulated by clenbuterol (and other beta-agonists). Clenbuterol is anabolic in animals in only very high dosages, and these dosages would be lethal for humans. The new antigen vaccine would stimulate the same anabolic receptor, nut it wouldn't cause any of the side effects. Both of these vaccines are being developed in the beef industry in Australia. I'll give you more information as it becomes available.

In your recent estrogen article, you mentioned Clomid (clomiphene) was safe for long-term use by bodybuilders. But in the World Anabolic Review, the authors say Clomid should be used for no more than 14 days and that it's a poor estrogen blocker. Also you gave Proviron (mesterolone) a poor mark while the World Anabolic Review claims it's one of the best estrogen blockers. What's up? I'm totally confused

Although Colmid isn't the best of the anti-estrogens, it also has the dual function of mimicking luteinizing hormone, which stimulates gonadal testosterone. So, if you want to lower estrogen and raise testosterone or maintain a natural testosterone level during steroid use, Clomid, if found economically, is an attractive option. I believe the World Anabolic Review writers probably misread the warnings about Clomid and printed the duration of use for women. There are no adverse reactions with long-term use in men that I know of.

If a steroid user is looking for a pracrical estrogen blocker to prevent gynecomastia, Clomid is not the besto choice. In this case, the usual choices are either Nolvadex or Proviron. After recent discussions with one of my newsletter writers/researchers, Bill Roberts, I've come to believe Proviron might not be the terrible, androgenic steroid I always assumed it was. Bill Roberts has pointed out that the liver metabolizes Proviron into something with minimal androgenic action. Although on paper Proviron appears to be a classic androgen, its ultimate fate in the body is much more benign. In a future newsletter issue, I'll have Bill Roberts expand on this subject.
   
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Dan Duchaine - Skullfucked: Interview with The Sandwich
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Dan Duchaine - Skullfucked: Interview with The Sandwich - 02-11-2012, 01:41 PM

January 24, 2000 -- When I was 18 years old, I almost pooped my pants. I had to go really bad and I didnít know what to do. So, out of sheer desperation, I took a massive poop underneath my parents' pontoon boat in the back yard. The poop was so big I was damn near proud of its size. I had just walked home from school, and I had to go really bad, but I was locked out of the house. Sometimes in desperate situations, one will do just about anything, including taking a poop out in public.

Currently, I am broke and out of money. I donít have enough money for food, so I steal it, and I am already two months behind on my rent. If I donít pay my rent, I'll get thrown out of the mental ward house (for the mentally ill) that I live in.

I love it here. I donít want to leave. I have become accustomed to living with retards, so its great. I have a nice time here: I eat, watch TV, and sleep.

Sometimes, when I am bored, I beat up the orderlies (all women). Another desperate move. I'm a run-and-hide type guy. I'll be the first to start a fight, but I'll also be the first guy to run away once I find out that the guy really wants to kick my ass.

Anyway, I needed some fast cash quick, so I said to myself, "How about I do another Duchaine interview? They are always popular, and I could score $500 for it, too."

But, I was desperate. As you will see below, my questions are totally off the wall: Abusive, disrespectful, and downright illegal. It seems I always ask the wrong questions. Even Dan Duchaine is "fed up" with me and my desperate antics. He no longer responds to my emails or anything. Looks like I pissed him off with the questions I asked him for this interview. I will probably piss you off, too. So, after everyone reads this, the entire bodybuilding community will want to kick my ass, because its so offending. Thatís ok. I donít sweat you. I own you, boy! Bring your shit on! Ok ok, enough tough-guy talk. In all honesty, you could probably kick my fat ass. I'm 425 lbs. and 5'6". I look like a fat, midgetized version of Nasser El Sonbaty -- without all the muscles. If u want to fight me, send me a letter and issue the challenge. Just donít expect me to show up, though. I only fight people I can beat up, and that excludes just about all of Earthís population except women and children. Great. Iím gonna get my ass kicked for writing this article. Its almost not even worth the $500. I am so scared I feel like...pooping my pants, but I see no pontoon boat in sight.

Here is the interview, totally uncut, uncensored and in-your-face. Donít like that? Fuck you! At least I never drank my own urine like Mike Mentzer did (thatís another story).

Enjoy! But donít kick my ass.

Duchaine: (phone rings) Hi, this is Dan.

Sandwich: Hi Dan, this is The Sandwich!

Duchaine: Hi Sandwich.

Sandwich: How are you?

Duchaine: Iím fine.

Sandwich: Well, first Iíd like to thank you for giving me the interview.

Duchaine: Youíre welcome.

Sandwich: I really appreciate that. A lot of the questions are going to be quite controversial, and I hope that you donít take personal offense to them. The reason I ask them isÖ

Duchaine: (interrupts) No! I mean, if there is something I canít answer, simply because it would effect someone else on a personal level, Iíll just let you know.

Sandwich: Ok, great. Letís start from the beginning. You no longer work for "Buttplug" Bill Phillips. What happened? He seemed to have squandered your "Ask The GuruÖ" column for the past 8 months or so.

Duchaine: (sighs) Well, originally when I negotiated the contract for Muscle Media, I just kinda picked 30 months. Originally they wanted, like, one year on the contract, but I wanted to have a little more, longer contract, just to have the security. And, so, I knew I wanted at least two years, and I thought maybe 36 months is too long. So, I settled with 30, and when 30 came up, that was the middle of January. So that was it.

Sandwich: Are you glad that you left, or did you wish to stay with Muscle Media?

Duchaine: (pauses) I wasnít to happy with the magazine, because I didnít have as much free*** at the end then I had in the beginning. I was pretty spoiled in the beginning. I mean, I could do pretty much anything I wanted, and they hardly edited it all. It was a really sweet gig. I guess if the contract was longer, with a guaranteed "so much" a month, for a few more months or another year, sure! I mean, I donít have this big compulsion to write all the time and every month. I know it seems terrible to say, but to be able to get a regular paycheck a month - a substantial one - and not have to do a whole bunch of writing isnít terribly bad in my eyes. Although I think the readers thought I had lost them along the way.

Sandwich: Do you think youíll be able to gain them backÖ

Duchaine: Sure!

Sandwich: Öwith your new columns in Ironman and Pump?

Duchaine: Oh, I have much more fun over there, because I can get my sense of humor back, which it is. I have more free***. The problem with Muscle Media, toward the end, is they really didnít want to discuss any kind of nutritional product that they were not selling. Or, if a competitor was selling it, we couldnít really talk about it, or if it wasnít on the market yet, they didnít want to hear about it. So, that kinda restricts the palette of information quite a bit, I think. I know youíre supposed to be professional, and if you have a lot of money, you should be able to do whatever you damn well want. The pay was good, but Iím not the type of professional writer that can churn a lot of copy out, like a Greg Zulak or a Bill Dobbins.

Sandwich: Whatís "Buttplug" like in real life? I heard on the ĎNet that heís a totally arrogant Ecstasy and Xanax-abusing flake. Is it true that he broke down and went into rehab when his company, EAS, hit the bottom?

Duchaine: Donít know. I wish I could tell you some real juicy facts, but remember: Iím here in San Diego, and theyíre in Colorado. Because, in the beginning, Bill was so young, and he had such an outrageous lifestyle of Playboy Bunnies and fast cars and a lot of parties, which was not, socially, my realÖ(sigh)ÖI just didnít like it. I didnít really socialize with him, so I wasnít part of his inner circle. I kinda was waiting for him to grow up (laughs), and in a way, he did. Iím adamantly stuck in the hardcore subculture, and he moved on to more mainstream things. I guess thatís kind of growing up, or a more professional or financialÖif it actually worked. But, I donít think his decisions on changing the magazine really paid off the way he thought they would.

So, I canít really tell you what he was like as a person. He never called me on the phone, and he rarely faxed me. Even the faxes to the people at NEXT Nutrition started to stop, so I cant really tell you what is going on with him.

Sandwich: So I take it you never participated in his now infamous gangbangs of strippers and stuff?

Duchaine: Nothing. No. I have a hard time with the clubs and strippers. I really do love women both as sexual objects and as peopleÖ(pauses)Ömy persona, in print, is much different than me, the person. I have much more respect for people and women in real life, than what appears in print.

Sandwich: Yeah, I know what you mean. Let me give you a scenario: You are on a road trip with Bill Phillips and Joe Weider. Bill and Joe were out one day walking in the woods when they both stepped on a sharp, rusty dildo. Subsequently, they both got lock jaw from it; their mouth is now wide open and they cant close it. Later, you are driving down the highway in the middle of no-where, and you have to take a massive crap, and you canít crap outside because there is molten lava on the ground. You have no other choice. There are only two places you can crap: Either in Bill Phillipsí mouth, or in Joe Weiderís mouth. Which one would you rather crap in, and why?

Duchaine: Mwahahahahahahah!!! (uproarious laughter) What a terrible, terrible question! Hehehehehehe! That was very funny, but youíre not going to get an answer from me. I really owe them both too damn much to really slam them like that. Joe Weider got me started. I was in that first article I did for Gordon Longís Muscle Digest. Bill Dobbins took me on board with FLEX magazine, and Joe Weider allowed Mike Zumpano and I to place our ads for The Underground Steroid Handbook in his Muscle Builder/Power. And, of course, Bill Phillips stood by me when I was in prison, when no one else really didnít want to see me. As much as it looks like weíve had our differences between those two people, god, they really made me a lot of money and put me where I am today.

Sandwich: Hereís another scenario: You are walking in the woods of Africa with Monica. No one is around you for hundreds of miles. All of the sudden, she has a heart attack and dies right in front of you. Her body will evaporate in 20 minutes. Would you fuck her dead corpse? If so, why?

Duchaine: Hahahahahahahaha!!! (Huge-ass laughter) AhhÖ(long pause)Öno, I wouldnít do that (chuckles). But, you know, you might ask the question if she was alive, I might give you the same answer! (laughs)

Sandwich: Have you ever had a black girlfriend? And if so, are they better than white girlfriends?

Duchaine: (Laughter) Sandwich, when I was a young manÖhow old are you now?

Sandwich: Twenty-one.

Duchaine: Yeah. When I was about your age, maybe a year older, I had two black girlfriends for decent lengths of time.

Sandwich: (Interrupts) At the same time!?

Duchaine: No! Different times. I had no problems with them what so ever. We had some good times. I donít think this really relates to bodybuilding, but I think youíre confusing racial characteristics and cultural characteristics. I think maybe people object to certain aspects of black culture, but racially, I donít think thatís the objection. I donít think they care about the color of the skin, as much as their culture. Itís a more "in your face" culture. Itís a little disconcerting if youíre used to other cultures, which are more laid-back.

Sandwich: Okay. For one million dollars in cash, a Lamborghini Diablo, a case of Xanax and Ecstasy, and a pair of purple, EAS workout-shorts, would you have gay sex with Bill Phillips?

Duchaine: (chuckles) OhÖmillion dollars? Sure!

Sandwich: For real!?

Duchaine: Sure!

Sandwich: Really?!

Duchaine: Sure!

Sandwich: Hohohohohahahaha!

Duchaine: Thatís a lot of money! Youíd do it too! (laughs)

Sandwich: I was in a chat room the other day and someone told me that a certain bodybuilder in this sport got prostate cancer from being fucked in the ass by Dorian Yates. Have you heard this, and do you think it might be true?

Duchaine: (In a serious tone) I think thatís a lame joke. And as much as many people have a beef against (name deleted out of fear - lets call him "scumbag") - and I donít have a beef, because Iím not into competitive bodybuilding - God forbid you are I have the same malady. Itís not uncommon and heís a very young man to have that, you know? As much as he may be doing things that doesnít make people happy, it certainly doesnít warrant that kind of severe punishment.

Sandwich: (Sheepishly) Okay, I understand. Switching gears, PGF2a. As you know, this is the drug that is reported to cause muscle hypertrophy (growth) simply by injecting it and then lying around, waiting for your muscles to grow. Kind of like a "natural" Synthol. What do you think of this drug? Itís a real hot topic on the ĎNet right now.

Duchaine: I happen to knowÖwhatís his name, the one he put the article under? I know his real name and where he livesÖ

Sandwich: Dharkam?

Duchaine: Yeah, Dharkam. Thatís not his real name, but heís a really smart guy. Heís one of the two or three people that I really trust. Now, he is probably the only one, outside of myself, that gets really creative with the research. It seems that everybody else is timid with the research, and you have to have a little bit of recklessness to be able to push the state-of-the-art of bodybuilding forward. I guess Iím one of them. I guess I might have thought that Chris Clark is, although I donít him that well, and Dharkam. If Dharkam says it works, it probably does work. I know there is no research on it, but heís probably right. I have known this man for at least three or four years. Heís always been thought provoking, and many times, when people disrespect him and say heís full of shit, he always pulls a reference to validate whatever he said. So, yeah, I think PGF2a will work.

Sandwich: Do you know of any bodybuilders that have tried this drug yet?

Duchaine: You know, as a matter of fact, its odd, because I sent all that information to one of my underground network people that could get stuff like that, and heís having a hard time finding it to even try it out! Give us a month or twoÖI guess it is something I would be stupid enough to do myself. It is my job to be reckless, and I guess I would try it.

Sandwich: Really? Wow thatís a big risk.

Duchaine: Yeah.

Sandwich: I asked you this question in our last interview, but it never made it to print, so Iíll ask it again: Who is your favorite fitness bimbo and would you fuck her? Mine is Monica, by the way. (laughs)

Duchaine: (pauses and thinks) GodÖoh, well I canít really tell how. What? Me reveal all of my secrets? (laughs) Berez? The girl from Central Europe? Sheís a MET-Rx girl. She won two, three years ago with the little ribbon thing. Sheís into rhythm gymnastics, and ever since then, she hasnít shown up in the best of shape, and they always shoot her down. Um, Iíd have to look her name up. Iím bad with these European names, but yeah, sheíd be the one Iíd chose.

Sandwich: Speaking of Monica, did you hear the rumor about her fucking Craig Titus and Frank Sepe?

Duchaine: Nope. You can ask that to other people and theyíll say yes and no! Hehehehehehehehaaaahh! (huge laugh).

Sandwich: Youíve worked with many women over the years, and I was wondering which fitness bimbos or female bodybuilders that youíve fucked.

Duchaine: I made a pointÖyeah, I can talk about that, because a lot of people assume that because I work with so many female bodybuilders that I have some kind of sexual life with them. I would say that just about all of them I didnít [fuck them], because I thought that would hurt my reputation. I mean, my reputation was bad enough. All these men were saying, "Oh, youíre gonna ruin all these women!" You know, this and that. So, I didnít want toÖthat isnít to say that some of these women never became my girlfriends, and moved in with me, but I guess the major ones, the ones people would know, I was always a professional kind of thing. And I must tell you, it wasnít even professional, because professional implies that, you know, Iíd charge them money for it. I admired many of them, and many were just good friends, so out of friendshipÖI know it seems like a lame thing to say, but yeah, I always separated that.

Sandwich: Is it true they have vaginas the size of vacuum hoses? From the androgen abuse?

Duchaine: (long pause) No, that is not true. Why would a steroid make a vagina bigger?

Sandwich: I was referring to the size of their clitoris.

Duchaine: Oh, wellÖ(sigh)ÖI think your idea of a scale and my idea of a scale are two different things. Yes, clitoral growth with female bodybuilders and steroids is more than most sedentary, non-athletic women with no androgens in them. Yes, that is true. Is that bad? Not necessarily, because many women do have difficulty enjoying sex; difficulty achieving orgasm and female bodybuilders usually would not have that problem.

Sandwich: Is it true that the popular fitness bimbo, Amy, is a high-priced prostitute, charging $2000 a day? I also heard she fucked Jean Claude Van Damne, Arsenio Hall, and Antonio Sabato, JrÖand Bill Phillips, too! Iíd still do her anywayÖis she trying to fuck her way into Hollywood? Are these rumors true?

Duchaine: I donítÖ(sigh)Öwell, there was a rumor, thatís why she got kicked out of EAS because of some shenanigans between Bill, his girlfriend at the time, and Amy. But thatís a rumor. I donít live there. There was a rumor that Amy was Arsenio Hallís girlfriend. The other stuff I couldnít really comment on. See, Iím out here in San Diego. All that kind of gossip-stuff is really out of Venice and Goldís Gym.

Now, I was there for fourteen years, but I really donít associate with those people any more. And even if I did, itís like a turn around; a whole new group of people that are not the old garb. Everybody gets burnt-out and moves out of Venice eventually. God forbid those who stay, you really donít want to get to know them very much (chuckles). So, as much as, I mean, that is not to say, in one way or another, I have heard every part of that rumor that youíve just said. But, boy, that was third and fourth sources, so who knows.

Sandwich: Have you ever ...?

Duchaine: Bwahahahahhaahehheheh (lots of laughs) What kinda question is that on how to get big and strong and lean? (laughs)

Sandwich: Well I figured Iíd get the dirty ones out of the way first.

Duchaine: (chuckles) AhhhÖas I said, Iíll never reveal my secrets!

Sandwich: Iím going to name off a list of the current bodybuilding magazines out on the market and I would like to get your uncensored opinion of each of them: Muscle Media.

Duchiane: Well, it does have a role, now. Itís kind of like "Muscle and Kindergarten" now. Its very scaled back from what it used to be. The kind of reader thatís reading it now are very - they arenít stupid - but in terms of the subculture, they are very unsophisticated as far as what they expect for information. They are easy to please, I think.

Sandwich: Okay. MuscleMag International.

Duchaine: You know, it just dawned on me the other day that at $5.95 an issue, and the amount of time I flip through it, I really donít have to buy it ever again. There is nothing really worthwhile that will help me out. The gossip is not really skanky enough to be interesting, although I must tell u, as much as the guy hates my guts - and the feeling is mutual - but the only thing that I really look forward to in the whole fucking magazine is "Muscle Beach." That idiot, Steve Neeceís column. I do like that. He really has a handle on the dregs of society! Hee-hee-hee-hee-heh (laughs).

Sandwich: What about Ironman?

Duchaine: Well, Ironman, I think nowÖyou know, yeah, Iím gonna like it a lot, now that I am writing for it, but even before I started writing for it, the big turnaround [for them] was when they had Dharkam in there, which is Michael Gundill. They had Derek Cornelius, and maybe Bruce Kneller had an article in there. It really, for me, I really enjoy the magazine a whole bunch more than I used to. And I really think Ironman is what Muscle Media used to be, and all they are lacking is a real big sense of humor. If they did that, they would have a real winner. I even think, graphically, its better. I think Michael Neveaux can find and photograph the best of the fitness women of all the magazines.

Sandwich: Well hopefully when you go on board, things will start looking up for them. I think you have a lot to offer.

Duchaine: Yeah, I think they already had a good running start, soÖ

Sandwich: Okay, what about Muscle and Fitness? What do you think of that one?

Duchaine: Never read it. I really never read it. The only reason I would read a Muscle and Fitness is to see who, as far as nutrition companies out there, had the bucks to place ads in there. It gives you a very good idea about what a company is doing, financially, if they can sustain a big ad campaign month after month after month.

Sandwich: FLEX.

Duchaine: I think thatís the best of the muscle magazines, period. Artistically, graphicallyÖtheir photographs are just great. And I must tell you, for some odd reason, some of the most interesting science stuff makes its way into FLEX. I donít know how they did it! Once in a while they have a great, really important article. I donít think most people realize how important some of those articles are in there. But, because they are in between all those photographs and training routines, but they are quite good. Jerry Brainium does some of his best work in FLEX. Some of his articles are quite, quite good.

Sandwich: I agree. FLEX has really been very good lately. What about the other new magazine, PUMP?

Duchaine: (sighs and pauses) I think they should go all the way. Its like Muscle Media, but with ten tons of tits. I think they should really skank it out even more. I think they should be the first nude bodybuilding magazine. Thatís what they really wanna do, so just go for it and do it! The thing is, I am quite friendly to the editor, Jason Mathas. We worked together in the mid-80ís with Modern Bodybuilding. He got me back in the public eye after I left FLEX. Heís a hard worker, and you donít realize how hard it is to get a magazine up and running. As much as everyone expected Testosterone to be THE magazine, here it is a year since they started and they havenít gotten one issue in print, and PUMP has three issues. Thatís an achievement in itself; that they had three issues out, ya know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could say one hand there is mine, but when u see what Ironman is doing, they learned everything they could from the guys at PUMP and it turned their magazine around. And if Testosterone, as much as people hate what they are doing right now: promoting more products and right in your face, that may be their salvation. I mean, people donít do these terrible things of these infomercial articles and ads unless it works. And it works.

Sandwich: What about PEAK, by Steve Colescott?

Duchaine: Yeah. I always say that PEAK is like a non issue because itís a vanity magazine. I think Steve likes to publish a magazine just to show everybody how wonderful he is, and how a magazine should be. But, in the real world, his magazine wouldnít make it. Its just too esoteric. You can pull that crap with a newsletter, and I tried to do it, and it went out of business! So obviously that formula doesnít even work in a newsletter. So, yeah, I like reading PEAK because its slanted toward the real "upper end" of readers, and there is not many people like that. I find some of the articles very interesting, but if it really interests me, I would predict that 80% of a potential reader would not read the article because its too in-depth.

Sandwich: Is it true that you are addicted to Nubain, the popular injectable narcotic used/abused by most of the top bodybuilders today?

Duchaine: No. (long pause). Expand on that. You are going over something that should be focused on, because Nubain is a problem unique to bodybuilding. It started in bodybuilding, and Iím not very happy that I was one of the instigators of spreading that around. It started being a steroid dealer in the mid 1980ís when one of my suppliers had it in stock, and he said we should try this. We all tried it and said, God its not addicting, its not scheduled, its like wonderful! We started recommending it to bodybuilders for this or that, and I must admit that one of my consultations was a very influential coach in England. He went back home and started to spread it all throughout England.

Now, after everybody started using Nubain, it really kinda registered with me that this is something that people should not be spread around. Because as much as many people will not have a problem using it, some people do have a problem. So, youíll notice in all my writings that I avoid talking about it, because when u talk about something, its like making a validation. But, still, I must admit that I am part of the problem. And as of this year, I worked pretty hard in finding a solution, a protocol to get people off Nubain who have a dependant problem, painlessly with no withdrawal and no side effects. I have been able to somewhat solve the problem that I created.

Sandwich: Is that the GHB thing?

Duchaine: No. Actually, its another drug in the same family called Ultran. In this country, itís an oral medication and what it does, if u are dependant on Nubain, you just completely stop using Nubain and replace it with four Ultrans a day, every six hours. It completely stops the cravings for it, but there is no euphoria. Its almost like the "Methadone of Nubain." Every week you subtract a tablet, so after the next week, its three tabs a day, then a week later, two tabs a day, and then another week or so, you are off. No problems. No fever, no sneezing, no coughing, no diarrhea, no anxiety. Nothing!

Sandwich: There are a whole bunch of brand new supplements that seem to come out every week. In your opinion, what do you think is a "must" supplement stack for your average 200 lbs., 40 hour work week type of bodybuilder?

Duchaine: And we gonna qualify if its dangerous or not?

Sandwich: Well, most people would stick with the safe stuff, but if you want to include the dangerous stuff, thatís okay, too.

Duchaine: Creatine, number one. A well-made injectable prohormone, probably 19nor5AD, injected. One of the thermogenic things, like Ripped Fuel or whatever Cytodyne makes now; Xenadrine. Adipokinetix, by Syntrax Innovations, is good, too. Those are about the only ones that will really make a difference. Iím not going to put protein on there, because you can eat protein out of the supermarket if you want.

Sandwich: Yeah. What about fats? Do you still advocate them?

Duchaine: Yeah. Try to get them to eat it, though. You know, the thing is, when people start to bitch at me that they cant gain weight, if they only eat 20 or 30 percent fat - any kind of fat - they would start gaining again, really. Its amazing how when you just eat carbs or very high protein, how your body just sets itself for oxidating protein as energy, and not for muscle growth. Yeah, but fat should beÖI wouldnít say macadamia nuts and olive oil as being a supplement, because you can get them at a supermarket.

Sandwich: Iím gonna name off a list of the top supplement brands and I would like to get your brief opinion on them. Maybe this can help consumers decide which brands they should stick with. First, MuscleTech.

Duchaine: I must admit, I havenít examined every product they make, but almost every line always has some very good things, and a few clunkers in there. I think their meal replacement powder, if its at a reasonable price, its okay, because its got a lot of calories and protein in it. If I could go one by one, Iím sure I could pick one or two things that might be pretty good that they make. Are they good buys? Probably not. You could probably duplicate anything that Muscletech makes on an off-brand, for the same effect, for much less money.

Sandwich: What about EAS?

Duchaine: Personally, Iíve never liked EAS products.

Sandwich: Haahahahahahahaaagh <cough> !!!

Duchaine: I realize that they have a monster with Myoplex, but I personally do not like overly-sweet, overly-thick meal replacement powders. So that xís out Myoplex and MET-Rx right there. Everything else is either lame or overpriced. That doesnít mean that they are bad, its just that theyíre pretty run of the mill, nothing exciting. And whats interesting about creatine and sugar? Not much. HMB? Looks so damned exciting when the wind up was there - same with CLA - and HMB just does not pan out.

Sandwich: What about Weider?

Duchaine: Well, you have two questions there. The actual brand name "Weider" supplements is a very small part of the market now; its only 6%. They really do own a whole bunch of other companies, like American Bodybuilding Products; all those liquid drinks? Thatís Weider. They really ***inate that market. Who else makes those things with the supplement already in the bottle? They make some good money off that. For a while, I really enjoyed Metaformís meal replacement powder a lot. Theyíre reasonably priced; even GNC would sell them for $40 for 20 of them. Theyíre not overly-thick, overly-sweet; they are quite good. Then they had this runÖI donít know what happened, but all of the sudden they had too much lactose in the last batch and I could eat them any more, but up until then, they were a nice product, for a nice price.

Sandwich: What about Sportspharma?

Duchaine: I know a lot about Sportspharma. Mike Walls, who owns the company, in 1987, put $10,000 of his own money up to bail me out of jail when I was arrested by the Federal Government. So, I am kind of indebted to him for that. When I was in Federal prison - I was getting in shape to go out of prison, because I was a little over weight - we were able to buy Sportpharma whey protein out of the commercary. That was kinda nice. Right now, Sportpharmaís bar, the Promax bars, are really well done! Their lemon-shafon bar is really a well-made bar. They are quite good. Its probably the salvation of the company right now, because nothing else they have is really selling well at all. Unfortunately, for them, one of their major ads of one of their protein products was fraudulent, so they are being sued for Federal Court over the fraud. Its kind of draining their finances to fight that lawsuit.

Sandwich: Which top bodybuilders, pro or otherwise, is or was a faggot prostitute? You mentioned that Titus was one before he went to prison.

Duchaine: Hahahahah!!! Did I say that in print? I donít think so. God, poor Craig. As much as I think he was a prick, and he probably still is, he really did not deserve that much time in Federal Prison for a drug violation; probation. I think he just barely got out this month, and that was way too long for the infraction. Granted, if he was just honest about his drug use, and didnít wanna waltz the judge around, and the prosecuter, and the probation department through a trial and all these falsehoods, he would have been out long ago. But, ya know, I donít need to say anything, because Craig is Craigís worst enemy. (pauses) Its not going to be an easy life for him.

Sandwich: I hear heís got a pretty hot temperÖ

Duchaine: Yeah, I know. But, look: Heís been down, and maybe when heís back up there again, I might kick him again, but Iím not going to kick him now, when heís down.

Sandwich: What pro bodybuilders have gotten really sick or damaged, physically, from drugs that you know of? I hear Kevin Levrone is one. Also, that one guy, Andreas Cahling, had a stroke and his the side of his face froze up.

Duchaine: HmmÖwell, he had a stroke, but that doesnít necessarily mean that he had it from steroids. Iíve had a cerebral stroke myself, but I wasnít using steroids at the time. Sometimes its genetic. In my case, I have hypertension and polycystic kidney disease. I donít know whyÖI must say that bodybuilders generally really take terrible care of their health. They donít really think about things like hypertension, cholesterol, and this and that. [They] never go to the doctor. They are used to so much pain from their workout, minor aches and pains that would scurry a normal person to a doctor, they ignore it and usually get into trouble.

Sandwich: I always thought these top bodybuilders are under the care of a doctorÖ

Duchaine: They should. They should, but, ya know, things like hypertensionÖI must tell you, when I get off my hypertension medication, like when I run out for a few days because Iím too lazy to go to the pharmacy, I feel so good in the gym! Iím so much stronger! I donít get dizzy when I do leg exercises, ya know? I must tell ya, its very convenient to forget about things like hypertension.

Sandwich: The internet is now buzzing over the fact that you are going to be selling the popular French thyroid drug, Triacana, on the open supplement market. People are also saying you can go to jail over this. Tell us a little bit about Triacana and its legal status.

Duchaine: Sure. Brand name Triacana is by Lefale in France. Pretty much in the recognized non-third world countries, the only country that sells Triacana is Belgium and France. Because bodybuilders used it so much for contest preparation. It was a popular item with steroid dealers in the mid 80ís along with their steroid sales. And when they were smuggling steroids into the country, and whenever Customs would pop a package open and see all these European steroids, there would always be a Triacana in there. In 1988, FDA/Customs did an alert bulletin disallowing a number of things, like anabolic steroids - specific ones - trade name Nolvadex, brand-name Neurofor, which is simply a injectable co-enzyme B12, and Triacana.

Now as you can imagine, they really didnít ban some of the generic, parent compounds, because, if that was so, we would never see co-enzyme B12 again, because Neurfor was on the list. So it dawned on me, when steroids were scheduled by the Government and turned over to the DEA, that triac, being a metabolite of thyroid, would be naturally-occuring and allowed in the Dietary Supplement Act. And we kind of guessed - because we never got an answer from the FDA - that we imported the raw powder, not the brand name, they would probably allow it in, which is true.

Syntrax Innovations found a source [Editor's Note: To contact Syntrax Innovations, call (888) 321-2348], did the paperwork with the Customs and FDA, and he got the raw ingredient in. I always thought they would have to ban the generic compound, plus the fact it would be a touchy kinda thing, cause its naturally occuring in the body, like DHEA is naturally occurring. So that is why Triac/Triacana is on the open market. Now it does get interesting, because just recently, someone pointed out that its on the Orphan Drug List, which it is; 1991. Usually, you donít do dietary supplements on the Orphan Drug List because they are patented and have INDís on them: Investigative New Drug. Interestingly enough, Triac is not patented; it cant be, because its naturally occurring, and it has no current IND on it. So, even though its technically on the Orphan Drug List, its open to debate whether the FDA will ever bother about it. My feeling is, if they doÖsee, usually, they would - GHB was on the Orphan Drug List. They always knew that, and they didnít really move on GHB until they started getting health reports from doctors, police departments, and emergency rooms. That will never happen with triac, because triac, the beauty of this particular thyroid metabolite, is its impossible to overdose from. You can jack the dosage to ten times the recommended amount, and you will never have an over, hyper-thyroid symptom in the body. Thatís the beauty of it.

Sandwich: What would be the average daily dose for Triac?

Duchaine: The half-life is six hours. Ideally, it would be one milligram every six hours, which makes it a pain in the ass. You can scrump and get one milligram every eight hours, and still generate a replacement metabolic rate on it.

Sandwich: Would it be necessary to stack ECA (ephedrine/caffeine/aspirin) with triac, or would that be too dangerous?

Duchaine: No, because Triac is not a overt metabolic elevator. Although there are a few studies, as Dharkam pointed out, that did show a raise of metabolism above normal. The thing with Triac is, it seems to only work restoring a depressed metabolism. Like if you are on a diet for three or four weeks, and suddenly, if you're taking your temp every morning, you notice that you're one degree cooler all the time because your T3 is not as high as before. So if your hoping to take triac and jack your metabolism up over 99 degrees, I donít think its gonna happen. But it will restore your temperature to what it was before it lowered itself, so yes, you can use ECA with it.

Sandwich: A new supplement made by the popular and intelligent chemist, Pat Arnold, is really starting to catch on. It's called Cyclodiol, as you know. What do you think of this supplement, how it should be used, and its potential side effects? [Editorís Note: To contact Pat Arnold/LPJ Research, Inc., call (217) 687-4038 or FAX (217) 687-4138.]

Duchaine: Well the way it should be used is not the way he is marketing it. I asked Pat to do a cyclodextrin prohormone a number of years ago. It was never, in my mind, a good idea to do a solid, sublingual pill. People hate sublingual pills. Everybody is so impatient. I am! I'm not going to take a pill and wait for it to dissolve ten minutes under my tongue. Plus the fact when you swallow, most goes it goes under your throat anyway. My idea was for him to make sublingual liquid drops, with pH adjusted. You could walk into the drug store, take a nasal sprayer/anti histamine off the shelf, dump the contents out, put the subliqual drops in the nasal sprayer, and use it intranasally. And thatís the ideal delivery system of cyclodextrin prohormones. I donít think sublingual tablets is going to be remarkably that effective.

Sandwich: Which diol prohormone do you think is the most effective?

Duchaine: The most effective one is, unfortunately, the one that has highest amount of androgens: 4-AD (Androdiol). Technically, its not a prohormone. Prohormone is a nice way of saying precursor. To say "prohormone" is to signify that there is no anabolic or androgenic activity until its converted to another compound by enzymes in the body. We both know that 4-AD does not fit that definition of a prohormone. First off, its not a precursor; its a metabolite. Its something thatís made after testosterone is made [by enzyme conversion]; not before. Yes, it can be flipped back to testosterone, technically, but its a very, very illusive process in the body. Most if it is just a metabolite and stays that way. And, its as androgenic, if not more so, than testosterone. In its unconverted state, its 90% as anabolic. So, its not a prohormone - its an active hormone in its unconverted state. Thatís why it makes itself work so well.

If you use it correctly, which means a large amount, frequently during the day, you will generate some side effects, including down-regulation of your own testosterone level.

Sandwich: If its an active hormone, how is it being sold legally?

Duchaine: Because no one gives a shit about it. I mean, people donít buy too much 4-AD, and those who use it, its so high priced, they are not going to use two or three capsules every hour on the hour which, they probably could do and makes some gains on it. So no one has bitched about side effects. The FDA doesnít have all the man-power in the world to go after dietary supplements that harm the public health. 4-AD is not showing any overt symptoms of toxicity or dangerousness. So its left alone.

Sandwich: Since you are going to be writing for IRONMAN, which is pretty much a drug free magazine, what do you believe is the most productive way of training for maximum muscle mass for a drug free bodybuilder?

Duchaine: Remember, I do a steroid column at QFAC Online. I separate the two. In IRONMAN, I do cutting edge nutrition and discuss supplements that have not reached the market yet. QFAC is exclusively on drugs, both legal and illegal.

Sandwich: Oh ok. Well, the question still stands: Whatís the most productive way for a natural bodybuilder to train to gain as much muscle as he can, even though there is a limit?

Duchaine: Are you counting prohormones as still being natural?

Sandwich: Yes. Anything legally available.

Duchaine: Injectable...

Sandwich: (interrupts) Well, not injectables, as most people wouldnít want to inject things.

Duchaine: Yeah, I know, but...I would say that most prohormones are ineffective orally. It would be hard to get a pimple, much less gain muscle, on prohormones. So, yeah, injectable prohormones will get activity. I think natural bodybuilders really have to start training for size, instead of strength. There is a difference between strength, which is neuroadaptation, and size. Your body will find the most efficient way of getting strong. The most efficient way is to neurolly make yourself stronger, because it doesnít really involve any calories. You donít have to add muscle, you donít have to burn more energy. Just contact the mass that you have more violently. I've had a lot of thinking about this. People keep asking me, "who writes a great training book." And they all suck. They really are all wrong, I think. I think the secret is never doing more than one set of anything. I mean, if u do four sets of barbell curls all in a row, every set your adapting because of the same plane of movement. Why donít u just ran***ly pick a different exercise everytime you have to do a set for biceps. I'm sure you can find eight or nine different movements or machines to get eight or nine sets and never repeat yourself. The same thing with everything else. On the bench press and the squat, the best bench pressers and squatters donít necessarily have the best chest or legs.

Sandwich: In one of your Internet Newsgroup postings, you mentioned that you have a natural thyroid supplement coming out, as well as Triacana. Can you shed some light on this supplement?

Duchaine: Its not mine. I just dream these things up. Actually, I think Derek Cornelius [of Syntrax Innovations] thought it up about the same time I did. I mean, I always knew about T2. It was on my list of thyroids to go after is someone was gonna bust my balls over it. I've been trying to get triacana in this country for a year. SoCal tried to pursue it a year ago, and they gave up. I could not get it made anywhere in the country. I passed the idea on to Derek, and he found a source. A source that nobody else could find, so he got it in. And at the same time, that same source had T2 available, and it was on my list of things to do, because it was another thyroid that had activity had a certain level. And unlike triacana, it doesnt have all the bad press (chuckles). I mean, it doesnít have an Alert List, its not on the Orphan Drug List, there's nothing. Triacana is easier to sell and easier to understand than T2. It doesnít mean that T2 isnít a better thyroid - it might be; we'll find out. My associate, Dr Bachinsky, has a computerized machine that analyzes your breathing. Your breath of oxygen, carbon dioxide ratio that tells you whatís burning what in the body. He's doing on these tests on things like Triac and T2 to see which is the more metabolically active.

Sandwich: Cool beans. What about all these GH releasers that have reemerged themselves on the market once again? Effective or bogus?

Duchaine: Yeah, I think the metabolite of arginine, agmatine, that one? That might have some potential because it mimics the effects of Catapres, that anti-hypertensive medication. There is alot of research showing that it causes growth hormone elevation, and it would raise your testosterone, too, at the same time. I'm very suprised no one has bothered to bring that to the market, actually, because all you'd have to do is call up a Japanese amino acid producer, and just order it, ya know? Even Arnold's Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding has it listed as a supplement coming out this year, so why doesnít someone get off their lazy ass and do it?

Sandwich: Are there any other new supplements coming out? Anything else catch your attention?

Duchaine: I'm working with a group of people on a naturally occurring uncoupling agent, similar to DNP.

Sandwich: Whoa! That sounds fucking cool! Is it going to be safe?

Duchaine: Yes. Its more a matter of getting it more effective than we...its not as affective as we originally anticipated, but we are working on that. The original compound was a DL isomer, and we figured out that the "L" part was at least inactive, if not counter productive. Now we are running tests with the D isomer of it, and hopefully it will...it will not be as strong as DNP, even though he research indicates that its, like, 50 times more powerful, but it doesnít appear to be so, so far.

Sandwich: Speaking of DNP, which still seems to be a very hot topic in bodybuilding, are you still planning to release a book on DNP?

Duchaine: Yes. That, and many other thermogenic agents. Its a book on how to lose fat without cutting calories. I mean, there's so many compounds out there that should be discussed. There is some kind of hierarchy that people need to know about. You can go broke buying fish oil capsules, CLA, pyruvate, ephedrine, norephedrine, and this and that, ya know?

Sandwich: Is there a release date for this book so the readers can be on the lookout for it?

Duchaine: It may be another year. Books just take a long time. Writing the book is the least of the worries. Its just getting the proofreading, the editing, getting it to the printer: It just takes time. Ask Lyle McDonald about his little ketogenic diet book, The Ketogenic Diet. He knows how long it took to write and how long it took to get it published. Two different things.

Sandwich: You also mentioned that you are seeing some anabolic actions with DNPÖ

Duchaine: Rebound, yeah. When you come off it. It does some kind of stress to the muscles, very similar to exercise, so when you come of, if you eat, you get a little bigger.

Sandwich: Okay. Kind of like a water retention thing?

Duchaine: No, no. Its muscle.

Sandwich: Oh. Is there a certain dosage or cycling plan that would-be DNP users should strive for?

Duchaine: I donít think you need more than two to three milligrams per kilogram of bodyweight, so for the average guy, that would be 200 to 300 milligrams a day. We found that because of the calorie debit from working out and everything, seven days on and seven days off is the best way. Otherwise you just get wiped out too fast after seven days.

Sandwich: Michael Colgan referred to a supplement that supposedly is DNP-like and can burn up to a 1000 calories a dayÖ

Duchaine: (interrupts) He liedÖI donít think he lied, I think he was just wrong. I mean, I donít think he wants to purposely lie, but sometimes heís just wrong. Heís the wrong person for bodybuilding. He can play with his little runners, and tri-athletes, and these old geezers that want to be over 100 years old, I would trust him for that. But as far as getting a bodybuilder bigger, stronger, and leaner, leave it to people like me who, you know, are reckless enough to try this new shit out to see if itíll work. [Heís] too safe.

Sandwich: Chad NicholsÖ

Duchaine: (interrupts) Ahh, Chad NicholsÖ

Sandwich: He seems to be the number one contest prep guru for the top bodybuilders. And for those readers who do not know what a prep guru does, or, in this case, what Chad does, please tell us what this means. You were a very famous prep guru at one time, too.

Duchaine: A contest "coach" is being the babysitter of a 250 lbs. baby. Its that simple. You are almost holding their hand. Most of the advice is three words: "donít do that." (chuckles) They will call you up and ask for your approval of the wackiest shit in the world! "I really think I need the cheesecake now!" "Donít do that." Thatís all he does! "And give me my three thousand dollars now." Thatís all Chad does. He says, "donít do that," "donít eat," "eat now." Oh yeah, Iíve seen some of his contestants, and heís done some pretty wacky stuff, and really stupid stuff, like fruit carb-ups. Fruit carb-ups so bad they are shitting out green from too many bananas!

The end. Whew! That was quite a workout, eh?
   
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ASHOP
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Lightbulb 02-13-2012, 06:52 PM

When it 1st came out I loved MM2K,,,until it became a fitness mag that pimped out EAS and Body For Life products.
   
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02-13-2012, 06:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALIN View Post
When it 1st came out I loved MM2K,,,until it became a fitness mag that pimped out EAS and Body For Life products.
It really did change quite a bit!
   
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Thumbs up 02-15-2012, 03:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALIN View Post
When it 1st came out I loved MM2K,,,until it became a fitness mag that pimped out EAS and Body For Life products.
The Anabolic Roundtable


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10-30-2012, 10:41 PM

AWESOME Read
   
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10-31-2012, 09:08 PM

Bill Phillips had a underground news letter before MM2K. That's the info he wanted to bring to MM2KK, it just didn't last long. Like ALIN said it became a fitness mag. I quess he made more $$$$ selling bullshit. He made a shit load of $$$$$$ when he sold MM2K.
   
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10-31-2012, 09:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIRBORNE View Post
Bill Phillips had a underground news letter before MM2K.
Does anyone in the know have access to these newletters? Those would be a great addition to any collection!!





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10-31-2012, 10:27 PM

Love the old interviews. Still missing the old ultimate orange....
   
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10-31-2012, 10:45 PM

I love all of that old school shit!!


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11-01-2012, 01:21 AM

K1, I apologize, as I had promised to get that Anabolic Round Table interview (both) to you, and never was able to. I tried to scan them on my scanner, but I could never get them clear enough to read. Were you ever able to access them?

I wouldn't have a clue who would have the old Bill Phillip's newsletters pre-MM2K. I'm sure somebody out there still has them around though.

Last edited by MR. BMJ; 11-01-2012 at 01:26 AM.
   
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11-01-2012, 01:34 AM

This is the first meeting and article of the Anabolic Round Tabgle discussion between Dan Duchaine, Bruce Kneller, and Will Brink.

Muscle Media 2000
September 1996 issue

Let me know if this comes up. K1, if you or anybody else can format these better please do so, and then you can delete my posts to alleviate clutter.

....hopefully this works.
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MR. BMJ
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11-01-2012, 02:02 AM

This is the second meeting and article of the Anabolic Round Table discussion between Dan Duchaine, Bruce Kneller, and Will Brink.

Muscle Media 2000
October, 1996 issue
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11-01-2012, 08:56 AM

Cool shit bro...These definitely need their own thread!!

If you have any other old school shit like this throw it up bro!!


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11-01-2012, 09:23 AM

Good Post. Thanks.
   
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Muscle Media 2000 - 11-01-2012, 09:44 AM

MM2K Dan Duchaine Audio Interview


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MR. BMJ
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11-01-2012, 12:49 PM

Damn, I haven't heard that Duchaine audio tape since when it was available in the 90's, that is priceless shit. I'm gonna have to check it out later on!
   
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K1
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11-01-2012, 01:01 PM

I really do enjoy the old school shit a lot...If anyone else has anything that is dating back please share it!!


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