first time on tren

[zman]

i am getting ready to start a cycle of 1200mg cyp/ weekly and 75 mg tren/daily. i have heard that tren can cause some undesirable side effects, but the results are supposed to be great. can anyone give me a heads up on what to expect from the tren. any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[Andrew]

i am getting ready to start a cycle of 1200mg cyp/ weekly and 75 mg tren/daily. i have heard that tren can cause some undesirable side effects, but the results are supposed to be great. can anyone give me a heads up on what to expect from the tren. any help is greatly appreciated.

There are at least two fairly recent threads on this same subject. I suggest you read those. I will repeat what I said in those:

more profuse sweating
possible diminished sexual appetite
possible lowered appetite
possible diahrea
possible tiredness and lower energy levels

 

[wolfyEVH]

you must have a few cycles under your belt by doing well over a gram of test a week

 

[zman]

this will be my fifth cycle. how are the results on tren though?

 

[Andrew]

this will be my fifth cycle. how are the results on tren though?

I give the results two thumbs up. My strength is gangbusters. At the end of this cycle I will definitely be at my all time highs on all lifts.

 

[gpearl383]

with all that test strength should be through the roof...want too look out for the usual sides....watch the gyno i was showing some early symtoms last time...

 

[stealthmeister]

Whoa, that's a lot of test. As for tren, I'm new to it too, but the strength gain so far is great. Nice and lean too. One side effect not mentioned above that can be quite problematic for some is insomnia. I haven't had that yet, but just this week started to have the night sweats....not too bothersome, just wake up with my neck and upper back dripping wet. Added a day extra between tren ac shots for now.

 

[pincrusher]

every day shots of tren sem to lessen the amount of side affects you get.
you might also want to make sure you have proviron, bromocriptine or dostinex available to help prevent progestin induced side affects though.

 

[wolfyEVH]

every day shots of tren sem to lessen the amount of side affects you get.
you might also want to make sure you have proviron, bromocriptine or dostinex available to help prevent progestin induced side affects though.

i've yet to run tren, but i'll always run it w/ some letro and b6 when i do.....letro has some anti-progesterone abilities, however since its a powerful AI, progesterone is useless w/o enough estrogen.

 

[tee]

every day shots of tren sem to lessen the amount of side affects you get.
you might also want to make sure you have proviron, bromocriptine or dostinex available to help prevent progestin induced side affects though.

Amen. I got itchy nips with tren at only 75mg EOD. It started in week 5 for me.

 

[stealthmeister]

every day shots of tren sem to lessen the amount of side affects you get.
you might also want to make sure you have proviron, bromocriptine or dostinex available to help prevent progestin induced side affects though.

Re: daily shots better....interesting. Maybe I'll keep to every day and lower the dose then.

Re: progesterone........a bit of a misconception here. I see this all over the place here and elsewhere. Deca definitely has progesterone effects. Tren has progestin effects but does not increase progesterone levels. What tren does do however is increase PROLACTIN. That is not the same as progesterone. Prolactin can cause gynecomastia and especially galactorrhea (milk production). Both prolactin and progesterone can contribute to major HPTA shut down with tren and deca respectively. Also, bromocriptene / dostinex are dopamine agonists, which result in the lowering of prolactin output from the anterior pituitary. It has no effect on progesterone.

 

[wolfyEVH]

Re: daily shots better....interesting. Maybe I'll keep to every day and lower the dose then.

Re: progesterone........a bit of a misconception here. I see this all over the place here and elsewhere. Deca definitely has progesterone effects. Tren MAY have some progesterone effects. What tren does do however is increase PROLACTIN. That is not the same as progesterone. Prolactin can cause gynecomastia and especially galactorrhea (milk production). Both prolactin and progesterone can contribute to major HPTA shut done with deca and tren respectively. Also, bromocriptene / dostinex are dopamine agonists, which result in the lowering of prolactin output from the anterior pituitary. It has no effect on progesterone.

tren is a progestin......a heavy one...deca is 1/3 of the progestin as tren (tren binds to the progesterone receptor @ 60% to that of actual progesterone).........i've never heard of a prolactin gyno......tren lowers your thyroid level which raises prolactin......some people recommend taking t3 with tren for the prolactin (leaky nips) but studies have shown b6 @ 100-200mg/day is great for this........

basically....

tren has MORE progesterone activity than deca......3 times the amount

t3 or vitamin b6 for prolactin issues

letro or the other anti-progestin drugs like pin said... (i would say letro personally as its cheaper and more accessible. ) regardless of the "anti-progesterone" abilities letro has, its a powerful AI and w/o estrogen (as stated in my previous post) you can have tons of progesterone in your body w/o it doing a thing.

 

[stealthmeister]

tren is a progestin......a heavy one...deca is 1/3 of the progestin as tren (tren binds to the progesterone receptor @ 60% to that of actual progesterone).........i've never heard of a prolactin gyno......tren lowers your thyroid level which raises prolactin......some people recommend taking t3 with tren for the prolactin (leaky nips) but studies have shown b6 @ 100-200mg/day is great for this........

basically....

tren has MORE progesterone activity than deca......3 times the amount

t3 or vitamin b6 for prolactin issues

letro or the other anti-progestin drugs like pin said... (i would say letro personally as its cheaper and more accessible. ) regardless of the "anti-progesterone" abilities letro has, its a powerful AI and w/o estrogen (as stated in my previous post) you can have tons of progesterone in your body w/o it doing a thing.

I'm currently taking a low dose of T3 on my current first tren cycle for exactly those reasons. Will only take it for 4-6wk though, then taper off. Helps to keep lean too. I am also taking letro, but just 0.5 ED to avoid as much fluid / fat as I can from the estro. from the test in the cycle, but also for the reasons you mention. Agreed, Tren may act as a progestin, but it doesn't increase your natural progesterone levels. Good point on the B6 also.....that seems to be commonly discussed....I haven't yet done a medline search on it though and just take whatever B6 I get with a daily multivit.

 

[wolfyEVH]

I'm currently taking a low dose of T3 on my current first tren cycle for exactly those reasons. Will only take it for 4-6wk though, then taper off. Helps to keep lean too. I am also taking letro, but just 0.5 ED to avoid as much fluid / fat as I can from the estro. from the test in the cycle, but also for the reasons you mention. Agreed, Tren may act as a progestin, but it doesn't increase your natural progesterone levels. Good point on the B6 also.....that seems to be commonly discussed....I haven't yet done a medline search on it though and just take whatever B6 I get with a daily multivit.

a multivitamin is only gonna contain around 2mg of b6....you'll need 100 times that

 

[stealthmeister]

a multivitamin is only gonna contain around 2mg of b6....you'll need 100 times that

Yup, you're right Wolfy...just checked....my multivits are just 2mg B6. I wasn't really doing it thinking that I was on B6 therapy or anything. Maybe I ought to get some b-complex vits in high dose. I want to research it a bit more first though. There's a lot of folklore out there about what works and doesn't work when it comes to vitamins, supplements, herbal stuff, etc. I'd like to track down some firm evidence. The problem is with AAS of course is that since use of these drugs has been driven underground, there aren't many good controlled studies available to review things like what ancillaries prevent / treat various side effects for any AAS. At least B6 should be fairly innocuous even if it doesn't prevent tren gyno. Being water soluble, I'd just make expensive urine with the extra.

Another thought is that with the progestin AAS's.....oxymetholone (anadrol), tren, and nandrolone (deca)........winstrol can also help because it is somewhat anti-progestagenic.

 

[wolfyEVH]

Yeah, I thought that may be the case. I wasn't really doing it thinking that I was on B6 therapy or anything. Maybe I ought to get some b-complex vits in high dose. I want to research it a bit more first though. There's a lot of folklore out there about what works and doesn't work when it comes to vitamins, supplements, herbal stuff, etc. I'd like to track down some firm evidence. The problem is with AAS of course is that since use of these drugs has been driven underground, there aren't many good controlled studies available to review things like what ancillaries prevent / treat various side effects for any AAS. At least B6 should be fairly innocuous even if it doesn't prevent tren gyno. Being water soluble, I'd just make expensive urine with the extra.

Another thought is that with the progestin AAS's.....oxymetholone (anadrol), tren, and nandrolone (deca)........winstrol can also help because it is somewhat anti-progestagenic.

the progesterogenic activity of drol is practically nil......progesterone really isnt an issue anyways considering the fact it needs estrogen to do its part. I really doubt there has ever been a case of progesterone induced gyno...you wont be able to tell what kind of gyno it is in the first place.....progesterone actually LOWERS prolactin.....increased estrogen can increase prolactin....theres many factors........would you like me to post the study on b-6 and prolactin levels???

 

[wolfyEVH]

Here you go
======================================
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1976 Mar;42(3):603-6


Effect of pyridoxine on human hypophyseal trophic hormone release: a possible stimulation of hypothalamic dopaminergic pathway.

Delitala G, Masala A, Alagna S, Devilla L.

A single dose of pyridoxine (300 mg iv) produced significant rises in peak levels of immunoreactive growth hormone GH and significant decrease of plasma prolactin PRL in 8 hospitalized healthy subjects. Serum glucose, luteinizing hormone LH, follicle stimulating hormone FSH and thyrotropin TSH were not altered significantly. In addition, in 5 acromegalic patients who were studied with both L-dopa and pyridoxine, inhibition of GH secretion followed either agent in a similar pattern. These data suggest a hypothalamic dopaminergic effect of pyridoxine.

===============================
N Engl J Med 1982 Aug 12;307(7):444-5

Pyridoxine (B6) suppresses the rise in prolactin and increases the rise in growth hormone induced by exercise.

Moretti C, Fabbri A, Gnessi L, Bonifacio V, Fraioli F, Isidori A.

=====================================
Boll Soc Ital Biol Sper 1984 Feb 28;60(2):273-8

[Influence of administration of pyridoxine on circadian rhythm of plasma ACTH, cortisol prolactin and somatotropin in normal subjects]

[Article in Italian]

Barletta C, Sellini M, Bartoli A, Bigi C, Buzzetti R, Giovannini C.

 

[stealthmeister]

tren is a progestin......a heavy one...deca is 1/3 of the progestin as tren (tren binds to the progesterone receptor @ 60% to that of actual progesterone

A few more thoughts.....

Re: Wolfy's info......correct as always....the quote that Trenbolone - acts on the Progesterone Receptor with 60% the efficiency of progesterone itself- and deca fits into the progesterone receptor with 20% the efficiency of actual progesterone.....that's from the article in Cancer Res 1978 Nov;38(11 Pt 2):4186-98

As for Nolvadex, generally limiting estrogen levels helps to limit the problems with progesterone gyno too, but there is some evidence that if you take progesteronic gear and use nolvadex, you may be at an increased risk for progesteronic sides, as nolvadex may increase progesterone receptors (Gynecol Oncol. 1999 Mar;72(3):331-6.).

As for bromocriptene / cabergoline......keep in mind that at high dose (10-20mg / day) it can also reduce growth hormone levels (which is why it can be used to treat acromegaly). Thus, more is not necessarily better.

As an aside, the "abortion pill" RU-486 is also a fantastic anti-progestogenic, but I wouldn't advise taking it and certainly not at the dose used as the "morning after pill".

 

[wolfyEVH]

As for Nolvadex, generally limiting estrogen levels helps to limit the problems with progesterone gyno too, but there is some evidence that if you take progesteronic gear and use nolvadex, you may be at an increased risk for progesteronic sides, as nolvadex may increase progesterone receptors (Gynecol Oncol. 1999 Mar;72(3):331-6.).

.

for one, nolvadex doesn't limit estrogen......just binds to the receptors so estrogen cant (its still circulating throughout the body). just take a good AI, some b-6, and no worries.......thats basically it

 

[stealthmeister]

the progesterogenic activity of drol is practically nil......progesterone really isnt an issue anyways considering the fact it needs estrogen to do its part. I really doubt there has ever been a case of progesterone induced gyno...you wont be able to tell what kind of gyno it is in the first place.....progesterone actually LOWERS prolactin.....increased estrogen can increase prolactin....theres many factors........would you like me to post the study on b-6 and prolactin levels???

Agreed, it would be very difficult to tell the cause of gyno, other than the progesterone one would not respond to anti-e therapy........but even then, it can be very hard to differentiate from just bad estro gyno or gyno that has already progressed too far and meds are ineffective (requiring surgery).

Also agreed re: drol, but it is still often on the list of progestins, albeit much less of an issue than with deca / tren.

Thanks for the B6 refs too Wolfy! That'll save some time.