Pramipexole question

[ASHOP]

Think I went half or 3/4 mg.. caber is so much easier for me to use and
works well. T

.25mg ED should be enough for most people. I think the half life is around 8hrs so I'm not sure if EOD dosing works. I prefer it to caber mostly because its cheaper. Also helps me sleep on tren too.

Thank you both for your knowledge.

 

[Sully]

Also, does Prami help with Tren induced anxiety? After about 3 weeks on Tren I started experiencing really strong anxiety "attacks". They were bad enough that I ended up quitting the Tren after I figured out what was going on and what as causing it. I'd like to give it another go if I can, but the anxiety is something I can't handle.

 

[Ironbuilt]

No on the anxiety Sully..try an herb or an amino acid like thenaline ..

 

[Elvia1023]

Also, does Prami help with Tren induced anxiety? After about 3 weeks on Tren I started experiencing really strong anxiety "attacks". They were bad enough that I ended up quitting the Tren after I figured out what was going on and what as causing it. I'd like to give it another go if I can, but the anxiety is something I can't handle.

I think prami can be great for managing anxiety especially on tren. I have used it with great success in the past for that very reason. Moreover I think a key factor is your starting dose of tren (or eq etc)and the manner in which you increase. A slow but gradual increase over the weeks will be best. If you start at 50-100mg per day you be far more sensitive to possible anxiety. I start with 10mg and move up 10mg every few days. I got to 100mg ed with no issues using that approach (combined with prami at 0.1-0.2mg).

Here is an old article I wrote on prami...

Pramipexole is a dopamine agonist of the non-ergoline class. Dopamine agonists acts directly on dopamine receptors and mimic the endogenous neurotransmitter. It has selective affinity for dopamine receptors of the D2 subfamily, in particular D3. Traditionally it has been used to treat early stage Parkinson's disease and restless legs syndrome. More recently prami has been used for cluster headaches and to counteract problems with sexual dysfunction experienced by some users of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) antidepressants.

Pramipexoles effects on dopamine are especially important to the bodybuilder. Dopamine controls physiologic responses, movement and emotional response. Good motor control and mood are critical to becoming a successful bodybuilder. Moreover dopamine also stimulates growth hormone levels as seen in trials by the Human Pharmacology Centre in Germany.

Anxiety and it's related effects can have a debilitating impact on it's sufferers. I see all the time in my research lab how many compounds can increase anxiety levels. I feel pramipexole's effects on dopamine can have a substantial positive effect on general anxiety. Dopamine can induce fascinating, complex human behavioural states, including disinhibition, euphoria, whereas dopamine deficiency can cause anxiety or sadness.

The National Academy of Sciences conducted an experiment with pramipexole to identify D3-mediated regional cerebral blood flow (rCBF) responses in living primates. At clinically relevant doses, pramipexole produced statistically robust decreases in rCBF in bilateral orbitofrontal cortex, thalamus, operculum, posterior and anterior (subgenual) cingulate cortex, and insula. A D2-preferring agonist studied under the same conditions produced a quantitatively different pattern of responses. They concluded that a dopamine D3 receptor agonist (pramipexole) preferentially affects brain activity in prefrontal and limbic cortex. So we know prami has a direct effect on blood flow in the brain and in the areas that are connected to a primates mental state.

Anxiety could be caused by numerous things but I feel certain hormones (tren, eq etc) can act as a catalyst for anxiety. There are many forms of treatment for this anxiety, most commonly a selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (SSRIs). Hood SD et al. (2008) looked into prami's effects on anxiety in conjunction with an SSRI. Twenty subjects were administered a single dose of 1) a dopamine agonist (pramipexole 0.5 mg) and 2) a dopamine antagonist (sulpiride 400 mg), followed by anxiogenic challenges (verbal tasks and autobiographical scripts) in a double-blind crossover design, the two test days being one week apart. Plasma levels of prolactin were obtained. Untreated SAnD subjects experienced significant increases in anxiety symptoms following behavioural challenges after either sulpiride or pramipexole. Following remission with SSRIs, the socially anxiogenic effect of behavioural provocation was significantly attenuated under pramipexole, whereas under sulpiride effects remained significantly elevated.

I have been so interested in prami's effects especially for anxiety I set up my own research. During various past cycles with certain compounds my anxiety levels were elevated. I started on 0.1mg per day and assessed my tolerance. I noted my sleep was effected if administered pre bed. I moved that back to 3 hours pre bed and was fine. Pramipexole's effects were noticed quickly due to it's prominent effects on dopamine. My general mood increased including sociability and my anxiety lowered. I later increased my dose to 0.2mg daily and this resulted in all the positive effects being increased to an even greater degree. As studies suggest much higher doses can be taken but my study was conducted to determine what dose could bring about the positive effects without causing noticeable negatives ones. Obviously the higher the dose the more likely negative side effects will result.

During any research negative side effects or health issues should be a priority. Patterson TA et al. (2010) investigated the toxicity of prami by administering it orally to juvenile rhesus monkeys once daily for 30 weeks. Rhesus monkeys (N=4 males and 4 females/group; 22-24 months of age) were orally treated daily for 30 weeks with 0.0, 0.1, 0.5 or 2.0 mg/kg PPX, and subjects were assessed daily using the NCTR Operant Test Battery (OTB). The systemic exposure to prami was higher than that at therapeutic doses in man and AUC(0-24 h)-data increased proportionally to dose. Blood pressure significantly decreased over time in all groups including control. Near the end of treatment, there were statistically significant decreases in heart rate for the 0.5 and 2.0 mg/kg/day groups compared to control. After 4 weeks of dosing, serum prolactin was significantly decreased in all treatment groups compared to control. This decrease remained at the end of treatment in the 0.5 and 2.0 mg/kg/day groups. This is all very interesting data when planning research experiments and trying to prevent any particular occurrences common to that research.

Pramipexole is not metabolised by oxidative pathways and does not lead to the cytotoxic free radical formation that may be associated with metabolism of dopamine. By suppressing endogenous dopamine release it is also conceivable that they may protect dopaminergic neurons from injury. Furthermore, A Antonini (2011) indicates pramipexole does not carry the risk to induce valvular heart disease or pulmonary and retroperitoneal fibrosis, seen with long-term use of the ergot-derived dopamine agonists.

Schilling JC et al. (1992) has demonstrated similar results when testing it's effects and tolerability on prolactin, human growth hormone, thyrotropin, cortisol, and corticotropin levels in a randomized, double-blind, crossover study in 12 healthy volunteers. Single oral doses of 0.1, 0.2, and 0.3 mg pramipexole and placebo were studied over a period of 24 hours. Pramipexole decreased serum prolactin levels in a dose-dependent manner, with a maximum effect after 2 to 4 hours. Serum levels of human growth hormone were dose-dependently increased; however, this effect was only significant 2 hours after drug administration. Furthermore, a slight increase in serum cortisol levels and a slight decrease in serum thyrotropin levels was observed. Their findings show for the first time pharmacodynamic effects of pramipexole after single oral doses in healthy volunteers. The compound was well tolerated and showed an endocrine profile similar to other dopamine D2-agonists.

As you have seen Pramipexole is a very interesting drug and I look forward to seeing more research conducted with it. New evidence also suggests it is an effective agent against subjective tinnitus associated with presbycusis at a dose schedule used for the treatment of Parkinson's disease. The drug did not change hearing threshold (Laryngoscope, 2011).

Just be careful when you are on prami as new evidence as shown it's effects on increased frequency and range of sexual behaviour! Munhoz RP et al. (2008) highlighted hypersexuality and paraphilias are complications not uncommonly found in patients with PD under dopaminergic treatment. One 67 year old man who historically was a very shy and conservative person, started to present increased frequency of sexual intercourse with his wife, during which he began speaking obscenities with an extreme preference for anal intercourse, preferences never requested before. After pramipexole was withdrawn, complete remission was observed with return to his usual sexual behaviour.

Thank you readers for your time and attention.


Just thought I would post it for anyone interested. Prami is definitely not a drug to be treated lightly. If you are going to use it please start off at a tiny dose such as 0.05mg and move up over a few days to 0.1mg. There are better alternatives for treating anxiety. But I think it's effects on dopamine are very beneficial when using aas such as tren.

 

[Magnus82]

Great article Elvia. Iron I never tried thenalin, but will have to. I have always used 5-htp. For me its about like .5mg of klonopin

 

[Sully]

Magnus, thanx for mentioning 5-HTP. I did some research and it looks like interesting stuff. I'm gonna go pick some up on Monday; might be just what I need.

 

[Elvia1023]

Magnus, thanx for mentioning 5-HTP. I did some research and it looks like interesting stuff. I'm gonna go pick some up on Monday; might be just what I need.

5-HTP is an amazing thing so definitely worth a try. Although it is best avoided by anyone who uses an SSRI.

 

[d2r2ddd]

.....One 67 year old man who historically was a very shy and conservative person, started to present increased frequency of sexual intercourse with his wife, during which he began speaking obscenities with an extreme preference for anal intercourse, preferences never requested before. ....

 

[Sully]

Elvia, is Prami supposed to be treated as an SSRI?

 

[Magnus82]

Elvia, is supposed to be treated as an SSRI?

These will answer your question. Very good read. Interesting part about carbs and serotonin levels.


5-HTP (5-Hydroxytryptophan) vs. Prozac (SSRIs)


5-HTP Does More Than You Think | Life Enhancement Products

 

[Elvia1023]

Elvia, is Prami supposed to be treated as an SSRI?

No prami is a dopamine agonist. Whereas an SSRI is a Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor. A simple way to look at them is prami mimics dopamine in the brain. Whereas an SSRI basically blocks the reuptake of serotonin so it stays in the brain for longer. Google dopamine and serotonin if you are unsure exactly what they do.

 

[Sully]

No prami is a dopamine agonist. Whereas an SSRI is a Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor. A simple way to look at them is prami mimics dopamine in the brain. Whereas an SSRI basically blocks the reuptake of serotonin so it stays in the brain for longer. Google dopamine and serotonin if you are unsure exactly what they do.

Got it. Somehow I managed to confuse myself when I was reading all the posts. 5-HTP should be treated as an SSRI, and should not be mixed with one another, but are completely different from Prami.

Just to make doubly sure of one thing, there should be no problem with taking 5-HTP and Prami at the same time, correct? Provided Prami doesn't help with the anxiety from Tren.

 

[Elvia1023]

Got it. Somehow I managed to confuse myself when I was reading all the posts. 5-HTP should be treated as an SSRI, and should not be mixed with one another, but are completely different from Prami.

Just to make doubly sure of one thing, there should be no problem with taking 5-HTP and Prami at the same time, correct? Provided Prami doesn't help with the anxiety from Tren.

Yeah Prami and 5-HTP should be fine. I imagine that would be a nice little combo. Just be careful with your prami dose...less is more

 

[Magnus82]

Exactly Elvia. I have run this several times and it does work well. I like to start Prami at.
.1mg and slowly work to.5mg. I also like to start a week early for short ester cycles.