My Thoughts on Anabolic Steroids...

[janoshik]

OK, so I was going to add this on to the "Thoughts on HGH" thread, but I have a feeling this thread may be a keeper, I thought I would start a new thread. Way more people use Anabolics than HGH so, let us use this thread to explore the multitude of issues with Steroid use, and bounce some of these questions off my friend Jano. I will preface the discussion by saying I am far from an expert, but like you all, I have my opinions. I'm sure that Jano will say that he is not an "expert" either but, I'm curious what his thoughts are on the subject.

Let me start by asking the first question, while forming the question with my personal beliefs.


I was listening to the RX Muscle series called, Ask Dave. He was saying that he believed the "Sweet Spot" for weekly Testosterone injections was 1000ml. I was surprised by that. It seems to me that the popular answer is, 500-750ml/week.


My question for Jano is:


What dosage do you think is the level where, above that, a person may be putting their health in jeopardy?

I believe the level is proportionate to a persons genetic ability to stay healthy. What I mean is, some people have a propensity for poor health. For this person, maybe abstaining from Steroid use is the answer. Other people are never sick a day in their life, maybe they can handle the higher dosages.

Your thoughts?

By the way, this question is directed to everyone.

First I gotta say is that everything I'd say was already here by Sully - even the disclaimer



To answer your question directly -

In regard to testosterone, I believe that anybody is putting their health in jeopardy and sacrificing at least a little bit of long term well-being if they run gram or more - regardless of their bloodwork and feeling.
there are changes that are not detected by either and it's simply as it is. Is is more harmful than common vices? Probably not.

There are of course people, for whom 250 will be too much already, but there are no people who can say that 1000 does nothing negative is what I'm trying to say.

And we all will remember all the blasts we've ever done, when we have to take a piss 20 times a night as we get older, and wonder if we didn't speed it up a good few years.





To add a few personal anecdotes (as there really is nothing to add to Sully's and other's posts) -

I have ran test at 1-1.5 grams and maintained perfect bloods and BP of 120/80. Was a great blast and I got long-term gains out of it - significantly more than from 750. I'd go as far as to say that's the sweet spot I'm able to utilize well.

My neighbor who we used to call tiny Steve, because he was weighing a bit over 300 pounds and benching over 500, felt like dying on 500 test, with all his blood markers going down the shitter deeper than they already were. On the other hand running 1 gram of tren only he pretty much maintained both his BP and blood markers for a good while.



It's all individual and if someone has easy answers to questions like that, I'd be vary.




I'd also like to say, that I don't believe in resets that Concreteguy advocates.

As far as I know, using anabolics actually makes you MORE sensitive to anabolics (even your own test) - even in long term.

I'm sure some study could be dug up, but unfortunately I don't have the time to look it up, so you are free to consider this input of mine irrelevant.


I'd attribute pros using extremely high dosage more to diminishing returns and the fact hey already hold absurd amounts of mass than to "desentitization."

5 grams of test won't be 5 times better than 1 gram, but if they are 10% better it gives them the edge necessary to win.
They also need more anabolics just to maintain the mass they have.


In my opinion b&c (with cruise being REAL cruise dosages < 250mg/wk) is less detrimental to health than going off with or without PCT and then hopping back on.

 

[Racepicks]

Thanks for your input, Jano! Some people may not agree with what you posted. Most of us on the forums develop our beliefs based on what others have told us, and in many cases, by our own personal experiences with Anabolic Steroids. In the event that people are not familiar with your background here on Anasci, can you briefly point out your resume as a trained medical professional.

 

[janoshik]

Thanks for your input, Jano! Some people may not agree with what you posted. Most of us on the forums develop our beliefs based on what others have told us, and in many cases, by our own personal experiences with Anabolic Steroids. In the event that people are not familiar with your background here on Anasci, can you briefly point out your resume as a trained medical professional.

I honestly don't feel it's necessary - med school didn't teach me almost anything about anabolic androgenic steroids and my career is utterly unremarkable and not connected to this field at all.

Most I know is from self education.

What school taught me is mostly to look even for unexpected implications and to review all data - look for sources, verify them and retain only what proves to be correct.

Also, there are many people in the medical field, who claim to have magical cures and all the answers, but when you start looking at it in the depth, their stories fall apart.

I find it's the same in this business and knowing how to spot that kind of people saves a lot of headache.

 

[Racepicks]

Well, in any case, your thorough explanations on testing, chemical compounds, and their interactions with the human body speaks for itself.

Let me ask you this. You say that Sully's post pretty much illustrates your beliefs. So, predicting what these PEDs will do to a person is impossible due to age, health, and genetics of each individual. Correct?

 

[Racepicks]

I'm sure there are some newbies that are looking for information and may stumble across this thread. If you want my opinion on Anabolic Steroids and if you should use them, I'll take you back to "Old School".

Train hard without PEDs for a time to build a base to add on muscle. Use dieting and cardio to become lean. Begin with a very basic small cycle of 8 to 10 weeks. You will be amazed how much muscle you will add in this time, providing you TRAIN HARD and CONSISTENTLY.

 

[janoshik]

Well, in any case, your thorough explanations on testing, chemical compounds, and their interactions with the human body speaks for itself.

Let me ask you this. You say that Sully's post pretty much illustrates your beliefs. So, predicting what these PEDs will do to a person is impossible due to age, health, and genetics of each individual. Correct?

Thank you.

And exactly!

AAS (and training in conjunction with their use!) have a myriad of effect, each of which is influenced by many other factors.


From genetic (race and other genetic heritage) through the diseases one had as a child dozens of years ago (which could've been asymptomatic, but for example negatively influenced the workload capacity of kidneys which might be exceeded with 'enhanced' training) to one's current diet, or even the amount of sleep.

All of these can influence response and negative effects heavily.

 

[janoshik]

I'm sure there are some newbies that are looking for information and may stumble across this thread. If you want my opinion on Anabolic Steroids and if you should use them, I'll take you back to "Old School".

Train hard without PEDs for a time to build a base to add on muscle. Use dieting and cardio to become lean. Begin with a very basic small cycle of 8 to 10 weeks. You will be amazed how much muscle you will add in this time, providing you TRAIN HARD and CONSISTENTLY.

I agree and would like to add some health pointers:

1. If you plan second cycle before you finish the first consider B&C - it's easier on the body in my opinion ( I'd be happy to have a discussion about this )
2. Stay healthy. Diet, sleep, general well-being. Even emotional well-being - relationships are affected as well - consider that.
3. Being big is inherently unhealthy - the bigger you are the bigger the trade off.
4. Being too lean as well. 10-14% is ideal healthwise, consider that.
5. Be conservative with doses AND compounds. Less is more.
6. Avoid anything that has research in its name. If the compound hadn't been used and researched for dozens of years avoid it.
7. While your muscles can recover from training much much harder while on, your internal organs can't. Don't go crazy with the volume.
8. Estrogen is your friend, don't crash it unless you have estrogen related issues.


I've seen health complications from breaking any of the rules above.

 

[Racepicks]

1. If you plan second cycle before you finish the first consider B&C - it's easier on the body in my opinion ( I'd be happy to have a discussion about this )

By all means, please elaborate on this.

 

[janoshik]

By all means, please elaborate on this.

Period of extreme hormonal disbalance after ceasing use of Anabolic wrecks havoc upon blood health markers by itself.

Combine that with mental health aspects (men really are not used to PMSing hard, to put it that way), possible depression/ED issues and accelerated loss of hard earned muscle and it's a recipe for disaster.

However, what I consider the most detrimental to health are the drugs commonly used in PCT.

Most people don't give it second though, but those drugs carry risks much higher than responsible use of anabolics does and therefore should be, imo, avoided as much as possible.



Staying on real cruise dose - 100-150 mg/wk carries almost no detrimental effect of AAS use and avoids the issues mentioned above as well.


___

I wrote the above as a person, who went off with no PCT, no issues and bouncing right back on normal levels several times over the years.
(I was simply so busy I forgot to cruise for several months)

No issues at all for me, but we are not all the same.

 

[Racepicks]

Period of extreme hormonal disbalance after ceasing use of Anabolic wrecks havoc upon blood health markers by itself.

Combine that with mental health aspects (men really are not used to PMSing hard, to put it that way), possible depression/ED issues and accelerated loss of hard earned muscle and it's a recipe for disaster.

However, what I consider the most detrimental to health are the drugs commonly used in PCT.

Most people don't give it second though, but those drugs carry risks much higher than responsible use of anabolics does and therefore should be, imo, avoided as much as possible.



Staying on real cruise dose - 100-150 mg/wk carries almost no detrimental effect of AAS use and avoids the issues mentioned above as well.


___

I wrote the above as a person, who went off with no PCT, no issues and bouncing right back on normal levels several times over the years.
(I was simply so busy I forgot to cruise for several months)

No issues at all for me, but we are not all the same.

When I first started using Anabolic Steroids back around 1988, I don't know of anyone using PCT. Basically, the way I was taught was that you cycle up to your predetermined amount of compounds, for 8 weeks, then you cycle down to the 100ml/150ml you mentioned then you come off completely for 24 weeks.


Are you describing something similar, or are you saying to stay "on" permanently?

 

[janoshik]

When I first started using Anabolic Steroids back around 1988, I don't know of anyone using PCT. Basically, the way I was taught was that you cycle up to your predetermined amount of compounds, for 8 weeks, then you cycle down to the 100ml/150ml you mentioned then you come off completely for 24 weeks.


Are you describing something similar, or are you saying to stay "on" permanently?

Honestly, the way you describe it is how a lot of people that I know do it - I did pretty much the same (forgot to stop using after running 150-200 mg for god knows how long after a blast) and it turned out well for me. Maybe it could be the reason? I don't know.


However, what I'm saying is that it's in my opinion better to stay on 100 mg/wk indefinitely instead of going off completely, under the condition that one desires to use AAS ['blast'] again.

 

[Racepicks]

Interesting....I've always believed that the cycles I did in my early 30's, without PCT was the reason that my Testosterone Serum level was 146ng/dl before I began Anabolic Steroid use again in my early 40's. At that time, my Doctor prescribed Testim. It raised my levels to 600ng/dl., after which I decided to self-medicate. For all intents and purposes, I'm going to be using Testosterone for the rest of my life.

 

[janoshik]

>without PCT was the reason that my Testosterone Serum level was 146ng/dl

You might be right about that. And damn, 146 is really low.

 

[Racepicks]

>without PCT was the reason that my Testosterone Serum level was 146ng/dl

You might be right about that. And damn, 146 is really low.

As low as my Testosterone Serum level was, getting the Testim was still like pulling teeth. The Doctor was telling me that 200ng/dL was in the normal range.

 

[Racepicks]

This is a pretty random thought. I’m sure that not enough attention is paid to this area of Anabolic Steroid use. I just read a post on a different thread about post-injection pain. Of course, to most of us, it is not out of the ordinary. But people worry about infection, and well they should!

I remember Bostin Lloyd telling people that there is no problem using Slin Pins more than once. I’m sure many people have used syringes and needles more than once. “Hey, I ran out of pins and I need to stick myself today”. It is thinking like this that will have you in the Emergency Room. Having a chunk of muscle cut out doesn’t sound like fun. (Ask Bostin Lloyd). Here is the process I have used for years without any complications.

Here is what you need:

Alcohol Wipes
Brand new Syringes
Brand new Needles
(Or Insulin Syringes)

The only thing I reuse is my drawing pin, which I may use 5 or 6 times. I just slide back in it’s plastic wrapper to keep it clean.

So...take vial that you want to draw from. Open the Alcohol Wipe and clean the rubber stopper on the vial. Open the syringe and slide (or twist on) your drawing pin onto the syringe. Remove plastic cover from drawing pin and insert into vial. Draw the amount of oil you want. Pull needle from vial and replace plastic cover on drawing needle. Remove needle from syringe and replace with brand new needle. Push plunger of syringe to remove air in syringe, while pointing the needle up, allow a few drops of oil to coat needle. Take Alcohol Wipe and clean area you will be injecting. After injection, pull out needle from skin and wipe injection area with Alcohol Wipe. That’s it.

This might sound like a headache, but I always want to be safe and not sorry.

 

[Firemike36]

Look, I'm not trying to promote high dosages. I'm not saying people should not take high doses. People will do what they want to do and probably not admit they are using high amounts of AAS, out if fear they will be flamed for being reckless. What I want to do is get an idea what people are actually using. I will not allow anyone to get criticized for their doses. If someone actually trusts us all and lays out their usage, feel free to ask questions, but DO NOT FLAME. I will ban anyone who shuts down this discussion.

I'm super comfortable at, and feel like I get good gains at 600-900mg/week (as most of the Test E these days seems to dosed at 300mg/cc) Ive gone higher in the past but I don't feel that I increase my gains by doing so. IMO at that point I look to add something else to my cycle. During my last prep I was a bit closer to 1200mg of test-e (among other things). I think 1g of test is fine if you tolerate it ok. Over the years myself (and a lot of other bbers I've known) have always lingered around 750mg/wk so whats another 250mg? I've never had much of a problem with estrogen or needing a bunch of AI's. To be honest I never did PCT in my 20's and 30's I just cycled up and cycled back down and then took a few months off inbetween cycles. That always seemed to work well for me. I gotten blood work done consistently over the years at least once or twice a year and things never got to far off staying at those levels.

 

[Racepicks]

I'm super comfortable at, and feel like I get good gains at 600-900mg/week (as most of the Test E these days seems to dosed at 300mg/cc) Ive gone higher in the past but I don't feel that I increase my gains by doing so. IMO at that point I look to add something else to my cycle. During my last prep I was a bit closer to 1200mg of test-e (among other things). I think 1g of test is fine if you tolerate it ok. Over the years myself (and a lot of other bbers I've known) have always lingered around 750mg/wk so whats another 250mg? I've never had much of a problem with estrogen or needing a bunch of AI's. To be honest I never did PCT in my 20's and 30's I just cycled up and cycled back down and then took a few months off inbetween cycles. That always seemed to work well for me. I gotten blood work done consistently over the years at least once or twice a year and things never got to far off staying at those levels.

I believe getting regular bloodwork done on and off cycle is the best practice. I'll be the first to admit, I DON'T DO THAT!. I know I should, but it gets expensive and time consuming. I also know that not performing regular bloodwork is a "Russian Roulette" type of situation. Dante Trudel would tell me, "if you can't afford to monitor your health, then you can't afford to practice our lifestyle,

BTW, thanks Big Mike. Your views are valued!:headbang:

 

[Sully]

This is a pretty random thought. I’m sure that not enough attention is paid to this area of Anabolic Steroid use. I just read a post on a different thread about post-injection pain. Of course, to most of us, it is not out of the ordinary. But people worry about infection, and well they should!

I remember Bostin Lloyd telling people that there is no problem using Slin Pins more than once. I’m sure many people have used syringes and needles more than once. “Hey, I ran out of pins and I need to stick myself today”. It is thinking like this that will have you in the Emergency Room. Having a chunk of muscle cut out doesn’t sound like fun. (Ask Bostin Lloyd). Here is the process I have used for years without any complications.

Here is what you need:

Alcohol Wipes
Brand new Syringes
Brand new Needles
(Or Insulin Syringes)

The only thing I reuse is my drawing pin, which I may use 5 or 6 times. I just slide back in it’s plastic wrapper to keep it clean.

So...take vial that you want to draw from. Open the Alcohol Wipe and clean the rubber stopper on the vial. Open the syringe and slide (or twist on) your drawing pin onto the syringe. Remove plastic cover from drawing pin and insert into vial. Draw the amount of oil you want. Pull needle from vial and replace plastic cover on drawing needle. Remove needle from syringe and replace with brand new needle. Push plunger of syringe to remove air in syringe, while pointing the needle up, allow a few drops of oil to coat needle. Take Alcohol Wipe and clean area you will be injecting. After injection, pull out needle from skin and wipe injection area with Alcohol Wipe. That’s it.

This might sound like a headache, but I always want to be safe and not sorry.

Reusing pins, ever, for any reason, has always been a No-Go for me. Pins are super cheap, and readily available on Amazon Prime. If I run out, then I’m just going to miss a shot or 2 until new pins arrive in the mail. It’s just not worth the risk, even if they’re just for drawing from the vial. Consequently, in all my years of these endeavors I’ve never once had to deal with an infection or abscess from pinning. Some of that can definitely be attributed to luck, but part has to be due to an obsessive attention to detail and cleanliness.

I also take my stash box out monthly and wash it thoroughly, and soak it in alcohol, just as a precaution. At the same time, all my u used, sealed vials get wiped down with sterile alcohol swabsits a quick, inexpensive precaution to avoid costly deductibles and having Doctors unnecessarily asking questions that I would prefer to not answer. Oh, and always make sure the swabs and alcohol prep pads you use are labeled “sterile”. I can probably dig up the university study that demonstrates why, if anyone absolutely needs to know.

Once again, that’s only my opinion, and my method. Your mileage my vary. I’m not looking down on or judging anyone that does otherwise.

 

[Firemike36]

I believe getting regular bloodwork done on and off cycle is the best practice. I'll be the first to admit, I DON'T DO THAT!. I know I should, but it gets expensive and time consuming. I also know that not performing regular bloodwork is a "Russian Roulette" type of situation. Dante Trudel would tell me, "if you can't afford to monitor your health, then you can't afford to practice our lifestyle,

BTW, thanks Big Mike. Your views are valued!:headbang:

Well don't make me sound like too much of a saint LOL, I just get yearly physicals and usually have to get labs done for one thing or another at some point outside of that. I've fortunate enough to have decent health insurance through work. For most health plans labs are part of preventative maintenance and free. So its a no brainer to get them done all you have is the out of pocket for the office visit. When I was in my 20's I could care less about them but being 45 now and you start having some bros around you with heart issues or having heart attacks that shit worries me after being on gear all of these years. Total Russian Roulette to not check into whats happening on the inside. Get that sh*t done my man

 

[Racepicks]

I firmly believe that some people are genetically predisposed for good health. While some people live a lifetime seemingly battling one health issue after another, others seem to live their lives in virtually excellent health.

Why do I bring this up? Because I think if we are going to discuss what dosages of Anabolic Steroids affect health, we should also consider my theory on health. That is, if you are one of the lucky ones who possess this genetic predisposition, you will probably not be affected by higher dosages.


How can I reach this conclusion? Let's look at it this way.


There is a 35 year old fitness trainer, he follows an ultrahealthy diet. Obviously trains every day, cardio, etc., and is the picture of a healthy human being.......except, he suffers a massive heartattack. How does that happen?


Then there is the 92 year old man who smokes a pack of cigarettes a day, consumes a few shots of whiskey everyday, eats whatever he wants....and is still alive at 92?

I know, this is a simplistic comparison. But I believe you see what my premise is. I would like to hear what others think.