My Thoughts on Anabolic Steroids...

[montego]

Dunno how I missed this thread.

I love the topic too.

When general health comes into the discussion the waters gets so muddy it's hard to give an opinion sometimes. I'm always very selective on the topics I discuss since I know at any time someone can see this info and run with it.

As far as how much test and gh could you use while trying to avoid negative health impacts down the road, I believe the answer is in your blood work.

We all know each person metabolizes hormones differently by being either more effecint or less. Personally, having an inflammatory disease I don't get the big elevation in igf when running gh like most do so, I in turn need to run a little more. Same goes with test. While 200mg puts most guys in the 800-1000 range, I only sit about 700. Body fat and other things come into play of course but overall I don't utilize the hormone as well as others.

This goes back to the blood work issue. Knowing what doses put you where is key.

Given you know what doses put youa in certain ranges, I believe that long periods of time above the upper end of normal for testosterone is playing with fire if done so for longer periods of time. Arterial wall hardening, and heart growth are almost certain to happen. They will happen with athletes in general but AAS definitely speeds up the process.

With gh you're playing with multiple things. Blood glucose issues, possible intestinal growth (still dunno if that's certain) and, the big one, the possibility of cancer growing faster if you do have it without knowing it.

In my opinion, staying in the normal range for igf and test most of the year is the best bet. A couple blasts a year might not impact you at all long term but, it might.

 

[Racepicks]

Dunno how I missed this thread.

I love the topic too.

When general health comes into the discussion the waters gets so muddy it's hard to give an opinion sometimes. I'm always very selective on the topics I discuss since I know at any time someone can see this info and run with it.

As far as how much test and gh could you use while trying to avoid negative health impacts down the road, I believe the answer is in your blood work.

We all know each person metabolizes hormones differently by being either more effecint or less. Personally, having an inflammatory disease I don't get the big elevation in igf when running gh like most do so, I in turn need to run a little more. Same goes with test. While 200mg puts most guys in the 800-1000 range, I only sit about 700. Body fat and other things come into play of course but overall I don't utilize the hormone as well as others.

This goes back to the blood work issue. Knowing what doses put you where is key.

Given you know what doses put youa in certain ranges, I believe that long periods of time above the upper end of normal for testosterone is playing with fire if done so for longer periods of time. Arterial wall hardening, and heart growth are almost certain to happen. They will happen with athletes in general but AAS definitely speeds up the process.

With gh you're playing with multiple things. Blood glucose issues, possible intestinal growth (still dunno if that's certain) and, the big one, the possibility of cancer growing faster if you do have it without knowing it.

In my opinion, staying in the normal range for igf and test most of the year is the best bet. A couple blasts a year might not impact you at all long term but, it might.

Absolutely!

Look...in my years in this game, I've always read posts saying that the amount of muscle you gain is more attributed to your genetics. And I believe this 100%. We all know guys who are blessed with a pretty good physique and don't even workout! Then others workout like a beast and with a shirt on, you can't even tell.

The same is true with health. Some people eat a healthy diet, run 5 miles per day. They don't drink or smoke. Then die of a heart attack at 38. Others drink, smoke, and eat unhealthy foods, then live to be 96 years old,

Personally, I'm an "old man". I have never spent a night in a hospital, never had a broken bone, I never even needed stitches. I've rolled cars over on the interstate, been in fights, not even a scar. Then, add on 30 years of AAS use. Lucky, probably. But I believe that healthy gene has more to do with it.

That being said, I realize I could be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow. If that was the case, I would not be dumb enough to disassociate my AAS use with my misfortune.

This is why I want young people to realize, anything that you do that involves a risk, is like playing Russian roulette. If you have health issues now, ask yourself, is it worth shortening your life to look good at the beach?

 

[montego]

Absolutely!

Look...in my years in this game, I've always read posts saying that the amount of muscle you gain is more attributed to your genetics. And I believe this 100%. We all know guys who are blessed with a pretty good physique and don't even workout! Then others workout like a beast and with a shirt on, you can't even tell.

The same is true with health. Some people eat a healthy diet, run 5 miles per day. They don't drink or smoke. Then die of a heart attack at 38. Others drink, smoke, and eat unhealthy foods, then live to be 96 years old,

Personally, I'm an "old man". I have never spent a night in a hospital, never had a broken bone, I never even needed stitches. I've rolled cars over on the interstate, been in fights, not even a scar. Then, add on 30 years of AAS use. Lucky, probably. But I believe that healthy gene has more to do with it.

That being said, I realize I could be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow. If that was the case, I would not be dumb enough to disassociate my AAS use with my misfortune.

This is why I want young people to realize, anything that you do that involves a risk, is like playing Russian roulette. If you have health issues now, ask yourself, is it worth shortening your life to look good at the beach?

Perfect points.

I love these topics btw.

On the forum I mod at we run weekly topics like this and it has been amazing.

Besides disturbing the knowledge, it brings interactions between the members aside from the regular ole stuff.

Good job! Keep em coming man!

 

[Concreteguy]

Absolutely!

Look...in my years in this game, I've always read posts saying that the amount of muscle you gain is more attributed to your genetics. And I believe this 100%. We all know guys who are blessed with a pretty good physique and don't even workout! Then others workout like a beast and with a shirt on, you can't even tell.

The same is true with health. Some people eat a healthy diet, run 5 miles per day. They don't drink or smoke. Then die of a heart attack at 38. Others drink, smoke, and eat unhealthy foods, then live to be 96 years old,

Personally, I'm an "old man". I have never spent a night in a hospital, never had a broken bone, I never even needed stitches. I've rolled cars over on the interstate, been in fights, not even a scar. Then, add on 30 years of AAS use. Lucky, probably. But I believe that healthy gene has more to do with it.

That being said, I realize I could be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow. If that was the case, I would not be dumb enough to disassociate my AAS use with my misfortune.

This is why I want young people to realize, anything that you do that involves a risk, is like playing Russian roulette. If you have health issues now, ask yourself, is it worth shortening your life to look good at the beach?

Some have a propensity to develop problems using AAS and some like you and me just don't.

I don't agree with 1000mgs of test being the "sweet spot". IMO a seasoned AAS user with mass and size in mind is going to need more if it's a stand alone drug. That very same 1000mgs is MUCH more effective with HGH and slin swimming in the blood. You know this. How you train will even effect your receptors and clearing. LOL, a question like that is "painted" with a very wide paint brush Race. Some drugs are mg to mg MUCH stronger. 1000mgs of tren? Masterone? It's just a loaded question to me. I'm surprised Yano didn't jump all over that point. Tren interacts differently with receptors also. Holy cow it goes on and on...…:action-smiley-064:

 

[Concreteguy]

I think sarms are very interesting. A prison guard at my gym uses nothing but sarms and is fucking huge. Guy tells me the truth because I help him with diet and train off and on with him. It makes me scratch my head just looking at him. But he doesn't have a vein in his body. He looks all watered up. Osterine and MK677 at a reasonably dose every day. Dorian had a sarm in his mix of off season gear along with the basket full of other things. Knowing they attach to the same receptors as gear makes it even more of a conundrum. Go figure.

 

[Racepicks]

I think sarms are very interesting. A prison guard at my gym uses nothing but sarms and is fucking huge. Guy tells me the truth because I help him with diet and train off and on with him. It makes me scratch my head just looking at him. But he doesn't have a vein in his body. He looks all watered up. Osterine and MK677 at a reasonably dose every day. Dorian had a sarm in his mix of off season gear along with the basket full of other things. Knowing they attach to the same receptors as gear makes it even more of a conundrum. Go figure.

I was never impressed with SARMs. Here was my protocol when I experimented with them:


MK 677 - 50mg. Once a day

CJ 1295 w/dac - 2mg. Once a day

GHRP 6 - 200mcg. Three times a day


My IGF-1 levels were the same as using 6iu's of HGH per day.


Some may argue that it proves that these high doses of peptides is better than using HGH, but the lethargy was almost unbearable.

 

[Sully]

Absolutely!

Look...in my years in this game, I've always read posts saying that the amount of muscle you gain is more attributed to your genetics. And I believe this 100%. We all know guys who are blessed with a pretty good physique and don't even workout! Then others workout like a beast and with a shirt on, you can't even tell.

The same is true with health. Some people eat a healthy diet, run 5 miles per day. They don't drink or smoke. Then die of a heart attack at 38. Others drink, smoke, and eat unhealthy foods, then live to be 96 years old,

Personally, I'm an "old man". I have never spent a night in a hospital, never had a broken bone, I never even needed stitches. I've rolled cars over on the interstate, been in fights, not even a scar. Then, add on 30 years of AAS use. Lucky, probably. But I believe that healthy gene has more to do with it.

That being said, I realize I could be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow. If that was the case, I would not be dumb enough to disassociate my AAS use with my misfortune.

This is why I want young people to realize, anything that you do that involves a risk, is like playing Russian roulette. If you have health issues now, ask yourself, is it worth shortening your life to look good at the beach?

For my money, this is the most important post in the whole thread. Genetics rule all. They won’t prevent you from achieving your goals, but shitty genetics will leave you perpetually playing catch up to the guys with great genetics.

And the importance of health as it pertains to genetics can’t be understated. There will always be those guys that use huge amounts of gear. What separates the genetic have’s from the genetic have-not’s is how they respond to those large doses, both positively in the form of muscle growth, and negatively in the form of side effects. Ancillary drugs can only compensate for a certain amount of side effects before they cause their own sides. More is not always better.

To some extent, we are all playing a dangerous game with our health. What exactly are the trade off’s? We have some likely suspects, and some possible outcomes but unfortunately, no one truly knows at this point. The number of unknowns and uncertainties that we’re dealing with at this point are mind boggling. As I said in an earlier post, there are just too many moving pieces to be able to point at one thing and say “That’s the culprit!”.

The overall impact on our health is something we all need to take into consideration regularly. Just getting blood work done once a year isn’t sufficient to be able to say you’re healthy and nothing is wrong. Our long term health shouldn’t be something that’s in the back of our mind that we occasionally make a half hearted gesture toward recognizing and bringing to the forefront. It should be something we consider every single we make a decision. Do I really need to run Tren again? Is 100mg/day of Anavar too much? Is eating nothing but chicken and rice really the only way to diet down? Is that little pain in my shoulder just soreness, or should I have it looked at? Is how I perceive myself when I look in the mirror healthy? Am I sacrificing my relationship with the friends and family that love me just so I can be another roided-out meathead that doesn’t actually have what it takes to succeed at the highest levels of the sport?

I’m just as guilty as anyone of making bad choices in my pursuit of Greek god status. Please don’t think that I’m passing judgement on anyone here. With time comes perspective, and my perspective on what I do as it relates to our pursuit of the perfect physique is evolving and changing daily. Parts of me still think that it’s all worth it. Other parts make me think I should walk away entirely. As with most things in life, maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle? I wish I had the answers, but that’s where I rely on the people here and their input. Guys like CG and Race that have more years in the gym than I have on this planet are the ones that help me see things from a different perspective, and I appreciate their contributions whole-heartedly. Maybe someday I’ll have the answers to all those questions. I just hope that when I do, it’s not too late.

 

[Racepicks]

I was watching the latest "Ask Dave" episode on RXMuscle. I find that, aside from Dave pushing his products, the content is pretty interesting.


THE TRUTH ABOUT MAGNESIUM! #askDave


One of the question he was asked was: If Dave Palumbo decided to add size again, aside from food and supplements, what anabolics would he use and at what dose.

His answer was: HRT dose of Testosterone (100 to 200mg/wk - long ester) and Equipoise. He said he is positive that this, along with increasing his food intake, would allow him to gain about 22lbs of muscle in 8 weeks. (kind of an interesting response from a guy who, a few weeks ago, claimed that the "Sweet Spot" for Testosterone was 1 gram...well, whatever).

This made me think about a story I read in, I believe it was Muscular Development many years ago about Tom Platz. He was recovering from an injury, I forgot if it was a torn bicep or a torn Pec, but he was extolling the virtues of a phenomenon called Muscle Memory. This is a theory that once you gain size and lose it, whether it be from injury or just not training, once you return to the gym you will pack on that muscle very quickly. I wonder if Dave's experience has to do with Muscle Memory?

In any case, what do the more experienced guys think about Muscle Memory? Does it exist?

 

[Aton]

I was watching the latest "Ask Dave" episode on RXMuscle. I find that, aside from Dave pushing his products, the content is pretty interesting.


THE TRUTH ABOUT MAGNESIUM! #askDave


One of the question he was asked was: If Dave Palumbo decided to add size again, aside from food and supplements, what anabolics would he use and at what dose.

His answer was: HRT dose of Testosterone (100 to 200mg/wk - long ester) and Equipoise. He said he is positive that this, along with increasing his food intake, would allow him to gain about 22lbs of muscle in 8 weeks. (kind of an interesting response from a guy who, a few weeks ago, claimed that the "Sweet Spot" for Testosterone was 1 gram...well, whatever).

This made me think about a story I read in, I believe it was Muscular Development many years ago about Tom Platz. He was recovering from an injury, I forgot if it was a torn bicep or a torn Pec, but he was extolling the virtues of a phenomenon called Muscle Memory. This is a theory that once you gain size and lose it, whether it be from injury or just not training, once you return to the gym you will pack on that muscle very quickly. I wonder if Dave's experience has to do with Muscle Memory?

In any case, what do the more experienced guys think about Muscle Memory? Does it exist?

I do think there is and have always noticed after dieting down hard when I returned to bulking I gained back the size pretty quick and easy.
Now some will say losing size is just the depletion of stored glycogen and yes this is true to a degree but at some point you have to drop ur carbs to a point to continue to lose bf and this is where your body uses muscle as reserve energy supply to keep up w the demand you are asking of it.

I’ve also seen guys get some great size then stop lifting for months. Then they come back and you see the obvious softer smaller version they are at the moment. Then bam a few months later they are back to the size they were.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[squatster]

MUSCLE MEMORY- wow
That's a tough one.
Been juicing for a little over 35 years now- think if you go to my photos-- you- will see 35 years of ups and downs-(I need to put them in order of time)
I believe to a point in muscle memory - WELL- the cells you still have fill up quick- THE CELLS WE STILL HAVE LEFT???
Other things- like my shoulders are so screwed up - my blood isn't flowing to my arms enough to get the 21"back again- is this why- hell knows? (21" arms on a 186 lbs. Guy looked stupid as hell any ways)
MUSCLE MEMORY- hmmm big time yes - but to what point
Did any of this make sense at all to any one?

 

[Sully]

This is the only study I’m familiar with that deals directly with the concept of “muscle memory” on a cellular level:

http://www.ergo-log.com/testosteron...permanent-effect-on-muscles-animal-study.html

The conclusion of the study is the same as what I have experienced in my time training and using AAS. Before I ever started using AAS, I never experienced anything that resembles “muscle memory”, especially as it pertains to mass. After I started using AAS, I noticed the phenomenon fairly quickly.

My personal conclusion on “muscle memory”? It absolutely exists, BUT, only if you use AAS. Otherwise, you are where you are.

 

[Sully]

I do think there is and have always noticed after dieting down hard when I returned to bulking I gained back the size pretty quick and easy.
Now some will say losing size is just the depletion of stored glycogen and yes this is true to a degree but at some point you have to drop ur carbs to a point to continue to lose bf and this is where your body uses muscle as reserve energy supply to keep up w the demand you are asking of it.

To me, this sounds more like the rebound effect than “muscle memory”. I see these as 2 completely different events, precipitated by completely different events. The rebound effect is very well documented by competitive bodybuilders from many different eras, and I not imagine there is much debate as to whether or not it exists.

“Muscle memory” is caused by a completely different set of factors and events, and is perhaps not nearly as well understood. The lack of understanding of the underlying mechanisms behind it are what lead to the debate as to whether or not it does in fact even exist in the first place.

 

[Racepicks]

I wonder! If you have an injury that keeps you away from doing upper body training. I would imagine you would be better served by continuing lower body training (squats especially), while consuming the same amount of calories as you did before the injury. Conventional wisdom would dictate that you cut back on calories to prevent gaining fat. Along the lines of this "Muscle Memory" debate, I would think by not using muscle cells as fuel, you would aid the process of retaining muscle, which would make people believe in the concept of "Muscle Memory".

 

[Sully]

I wonder! If you have an injury that keeps you away from doing upper body training. I would imagine you would be better served by continuing lower body training (squats especially), while consuming the same amount of calories as you did before the injury. Conventional wisdom would dictate that you cut back on calories to prevent gaining fat. Along the lines of this "Muscle Memory" debate, I would think by not using muscle cells as fuel, you would aid the process of retaining muscle, which would make people believe in the concept of "Muscle Memory".

Didn’t someone post a story here not pong ago about some kid in Texas in high school that smashed the state record in bench press? If I remember correctly, he hurt his knee playing ball and did nothing but bench for about a year. But I have no idea how that hurt his progress once he got healthy and started working legs again.

I’m not aware of any studies on it, though.

 

[squatster]

I wonder! If you have an injury that keeps you away from doing upper body training. I would imagine you would be better served by continuing lower body training (squats especially), while consuming the same amount of calories as you did before the injury. Conventional wisdom would dictate that you cut back on calories to prevent gaining fat. Along the lines of this "Muscle Memory" debate, I would think by not using muscle cells as fuel, you would aid the process of retaining muscle, which would make people believe in the concept of "Muscle Memory".

This is deep

 

[Racepicks]

Didn’t someone post a story here not pong ago about some kid in Texas in high school that smashed the state record in bench press? If I remember correctly, he hurt his knee playing ball and did nothing but bench for about a year. But I have no idea how that hurt his progress once he got healthy and started working legs again.

I’m not aware of any studies on it, though.

This is deep

I'm not sure this would be classified as earthshattering information. I'll tell you what. What I'm hoping is that posting these random thoughts makes people want to visit this forum on a daily basis. Not for my opinions, but to read what you, and others post. Adding the links to the studies that either support my thoughts, or dismiss them out of hand. My respect to all who have added their thoughts and opinions to this thread. I love this site and the friends I have made here, let's make sure it is here for the long run.

 

[montego]

I was watching the latest "Ask Dave" episode on RXMuscle. I find that, aside from Dave pushing his products, the content is pretty interesting.


THE TRUTH ABOUT MAGNESIUM! #askDave


One of the question he was asked was: If Dave Palumbo decided to add size again, aside from food and supplements, what anabolics would he use and at what dose.

His answer was: HRT dose of Testosterone (100 to 200mg/wk - long ester) and Equipoise. He said he is positive that this, along with increasing his food intake, would allow him to gain about 22lbs of muscle in 8 weeks. (kind of an interesting response from a guy who, a few weeks ago, claimed that the "Sweet Spot" for Testosterone was 1 gram...well, whatever).

This made me think about a story I read in, I believe it was Muscular Development many years ago about Tom Platz. He was recovering from an injury, I forgot if it was a torn bicep or a torn Pec, but he was extolling the virtues of a phenomenon called Muscle Memory. This is a theory that once you gain size and lose it, whether it be from injury or just not training, once you return to the gym you will pack on that muscle very quickly. I wonder if Dave's experience has to do with Muscle Memory?

In any case, what do the more experienced guys think about Muscle Memory? Does it exist?

I believe muscle memory absolutely is a real thing.

I have a close friend who used to be a perennial top Placer in local shows in the heavyweight class. Guy had an amazing physique.

Few years back he was in a car wreck and ruptured some vertibre which took him out of training for a very long time and even after he was able to go back he didn't. Just lead a regular lifestyle with nothing related to bodybuilding at all. No diet, cardio, training, AAS, nothing. He lost about 60lbs.

Last year he decided to start training again just to get back in decent shape. Nothing crazy drug wise just a trt dose of test.

Within 2 months he had dropped a ton of body fat and was UP 25lbs from his starting weight......2 months.

As you mentioned earlier Race, genetics surely play a role but, he isn't the guy who can eat whatever he wants and be shredded. He looked like a normal guy and regaining that amount of tissue in that short of a time frame on hardly any drugs was simply amazing.

 

[Racepicks]

I believe muscle memory absolutely is a real thing.

I have a close friend who used to be a perennial top Placer in local shows in the heavyweight class. Guy had an amazing physique.

Few years back he was in a car wreck and ruptured some vertibre which took him out of training for a very long time and even after he was able to go back he didn't. Just lead a regular lifestyle with nothing related to bodybuilding at all. No diet, cardio, training, AAS, nothing. He lost about 60lbs.

Last year he decided to start training again just to get back in decent shape. Nothing crazy drug wise just a trt dose of test.

Within 2 months he had dropped a ton of body fat and was UP 25lbs from his starting weight......2 months.

As you mentioned earlier Race, genetics surely play a role but, he isn't the guy who can eat whatever he wants and be shredded. He looked like a normal guy and regaining that amount of tissue in that short of a time frame on hardly any drugs was simply amazing.

Yeah...you're right. My first thought would be the guy was blessed with those genes that just adds muscle by brushing his teeth. Just like Tom Platz, when he attributed his quick return of mass to "Muscle Memory". Of course, age has a lot to do with it. I posted pictures over on ProMuscle when I was 56 years old. I wish I had pictures of when I was 31. I worked out like a fiend when I was older. But when I was 31 I ate like shit, drank, went to the clubs at night, skipped work outs, and I looked 90% better. Back then, 1986, we had all those Mexican products. Redi-ject Sus and shit! But I, after being involved in testing, don't believe that the AAS we have today is inferior. I'll argue that with anybody who believes that Pharma stuff is better then generic.

 

[Racepicks]

We all tell people not to make the same mistakes we made when we were just starting. For me, it was having zero muscle and spending a ton of time doing useless cutting exercises that my friends, who were competing in local shows, were doing. Spending 2 hours in the gym doing 5 or 6 sets of 12 reps of concentration curls and shit! No wonder I made no progress until I began using mass building exercises like Bench Press, Squats, Deadlifts, and weighted Pull-ups. Keeping the sets low and the intensity high. 4 days on and the other 3 days to rest. Eating a ton of healthy, nutritious and protein heavy meals.

Now, I point young guys just starting to Jim Wendler's book "5/3/1". Keep it simple, build a base first, and get strong AF.

 

[montego]

We all tell people not to make the same mistakes we made when we were just starting. For me, it was having zero muscle and spending a ton of time doing useless cutting exercises that my friends, who were competing in local shows, were doing. Spending 2 hours in the gym doing 5 or 6 sets of 12 reps of concentration curls and shit! No wonder I made no progress until I began using mass building exercises like Bench Press, Squats, Deadlifts, and weighted Pull-ups. Keeping the sets low and the intensity high. 4 days on and the other 3 days to rest. Eating a ton of healthy, nutritious and protein heavy meals.

Now, I point young guys just starting to Jim Wendler's book "5/3/1". Keep it simple, build a base first, and get strong AF.

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