First and foremost, I am not an authority on HGH. I am not a Chemist or a Micro-Biologist. I have had the honor of being allowed to test HGH for the good of our community for a few years. For that, I would like to thank each and every one of you for your support. I have read posts on this forum and other forums, as well as Podcasts, by "experts" on HGH and PED's. In my opinion, most of these "experts" are just repeating all the "Bro-Science" that has been repeated for years. Whether it is about "Generic vs. Pharma", dosage. timing, even the advantages of IV vs. IM, vs. SQ. I will try to cover everything. Keep in mind, you WILL disagree with some of my opinions. With that being said, I will not allow flaming on this thread (especially by me, if you disagree). Let's have fun and learn from each other. Stay tuned for the first subject, Pharma vs. Generic HGH
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My Thoughts on HGH...
- Thread starter Racepicks
- Start date
First and foremost, I am not an authority on HGH. I am not a Chemist or a Micro-Biologist. I have had the honor of being allowed to test HGH for the good of our community for a few years. For that, I would like to thank each and every one of you for your support. I have read posts on this forum and other forums, as well as Podcasts, by "experts" on HGH and PED's. In my opinion, most of these "experts" are just repeating all the "Bro-Science" that has been repeated for years. Whether it is about "Generic vs. Pharma", dosage. timing, even the advantages of IV vs. IM, vs. SQ. I will try to cover everything. Keep in mind, you WILL disagree with some of my opinions. With that being said, I will not allow flaming on this thread (especially by me, if you disagree). Let's have fun and learn from each other. Stay tuned for the first subject, Pharma vs. Generic HGH
ProFIT
AnaSCI VET
OK, Guys! Don't expect me to tell you that I'm not an expert on HGH anymore. When I woke up this morning, I felt something was different. That's when I realized, I AM AN EXPERT!.......
seriously though, give me a few days to put the "Pharma vs. Generic" post together. With work and shit, I don't just want to throw up some bullshit. I would like to present a somewhat thorough dissertation on the differences between the two. Thanks again for the opportunity!
seriously though, give me a few days to put the "Pharma vs. Generic" post together. With work and shit, I don't just want to throw up some bullshit. I would like to present a somewhat thorough dissertation on the differences between the two. Thanks again for the opportunity!
Hey Sandpig! We talked on ProMuscle about World Gym in Providence. I remember Hank, but what was his Partners name (I can see his face)? I remember his Son Chris, they also started a fitness equipment company, Big Fitness. What was his name?
The Difference Between Pharma HGH and Generic HGH - My View
PRICE
The easiest thing for me to say is that there is a BIG difference between Pharma and Generic HGH. Of course when I refer to Generic HGH, I'm referring to Chinese Generic (although it can include generic HGH produced in other countries, such as Israel, Eastern Europe, Soviet Union, etc.). Guess what! There is a big difference between the two. It is "The Price"!* The cost of Pharma HGH from a Hormonal Clinic can easily cost you over $15,000 per year for a therapeutic dose. The same therapeutic dose of Chinese generic HGH self administered, would cost under $500. I am calling a therapeutic dose 1iu. per day. So the end result is: Not many can afford the cost of Pharma HGH.
Winner - Generic
AVAILABILITY
The days of waiting outside of an AIDS Clinic in the hopes of buying Pharma HGH are gone. Those were the "glory days" of Bodybuilding, I suppose. At the very least, part of it's history. Not that HGH cannot be sourced through someone who is prescribed Pharma HGH. I have a friend who was advised by his 4 year old Son's Doctor to start his Son on HGH Therapy. He asked me for my advice. My first thought was, "How do I get my hands on my Friends HGH?". I know, I know, I still feel like shit for thinking it. But he was unsure if he wanted to do it. So I did offer my friend an opportunity to make a few bucks. No, I never heard from him on that. - Yes, we are still friends. If you are reading this, I do not have to tell you how easy Generic HGH is to get. I could end it right here, except that there is another consideration. There are some European based Sponsors who sell Pharma HGH. I've serum tested some of these products, Genotropins scored 27.0ng/ml and Humatropes scored 25.7ng/ml. Good News -That is exactly what I would expect Pharma to test at. Bad News - My IGF-1 levels were under 300ng/ml on 4iu's/day. I could be wrong but, I would expect a product that tested at nearly 30ng/ml would be higher on the IGF-1 score. I had some conversations with some foreign Sponsors who told me that they thought the European Pharma HGH was real. They said that it is easily accessible right out of any pharmacy. I still have my doubts!
Winner - Generic
Obviously, this discussion is far from complete. Give me a few days to continue the saga!! The next few episodes will be much more provocative.
In the meantime, let the comments roll in!
Thanks again for all your support in my testing efforts.
PRICE
The easiest thing for me to say is that there is a BIG difference between Pharma and Generic HGH. Of course when I refer to Generic HGH, I'm referring to Chinese Generic (although it can include generic HGH produced in other countries, such as Israel, Eastern Europe, Soviet Union, etc.). Guess what! There is a big difference between the two. It is "The Price"!* The cost of Pharma HGH from a Hormonal Clinic can easily cost you over $15,000 per year for a therapeutic dose. The same therapeutic dose of Chinese generic HGH self administered, would cost under $500. I am calling a therapeutic dose 1iu. per day. So the end result is: Not many can afford the cost of Pharma HGH.
Winner - Generic
AVAILABILITY
The days of waiting outside of an AIDS Clinic in the hopes of buying Pharma HGH are gone. Those were the "glory days" of Bodybuilding, I suppose. At the very least, part of it's history. Not that HGH cannot be sourced through someone who is prescribed Pharma HGH. I have a friend who was advised by his 4 year old Son's Doctor to start his Son on HGH Therapy. He asked me for my advice. My first thought was, "How do I get my hands on my Friends HGH?". I know, I know, I still feel like shit for thinking it. But he was unsure if he wanted to do it. So I did offer my friend an opportunity to make a few bucks. No, I never heard from him on that. - Yes, we are still friends. If you are reading this, I do not have to tell you how easy Generic HGH is to get. I could end it right here, except that there is another consideration. There are some European based Sponsors who sell Pharma HGH. I've serum tested some of these products, Genotropins scored 27.0ng/ml and Humatropes scored 25.7ng/ml. Good News -That is exactly what I would expect Pharma to test at. Bad News - My IGF-1 levels were under 300ng/ml on 4iu's/day. I could be wrong but, I would expect a product that tested at nearly 30ng/ml would be higher on the IGF-1 score. I had some conversations with some foreign Sponsors who told me that they thought the European Pharma HGH was real. They said that it is easily accessible right out of any pharmacy. I still have my doubts!
Winner - Generic
Obviously, this discussion is far from complete. Give me a few days to continue the saga!! The next few episodes will be much more provocative.
In the meantime, let the comments roll in!
Thanks again for all your support in my testing efforts.
Thanks Brother. Not much meat here, but next episode. "Is Generic As Good As Pharma". Guaranteed to generate some discussion.
I'm going to be doing an experiment on my own. I have about 6 weeks worth of generics and 1 kit of pharma which I will be dosing at 2iu for 6 days off 1. I'm thinking about doing a separate log and see if I can notice the difference. Two lots of the generic cost me 300 while I got 1 kit of Pharma for 375. Is it worth doing a log over or just casually give my feedback? I've never ran hgh before so I don't know what to expect out of either
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Look, testing can be expensive and time consuming. When I did all my testing, I had plenty of money and time. Today I have neither
! Here's what I would do.
Get an IGF-1 baseline test before you even begin. That way, you will know what your IGF-1 level is without the benefit of HGH. I would inject 10iu's of the Pharma IM (delt) and get an HGH Serum performed 2 1/2 to 3 hours later. After which I would inject 4iu's SubQ every day for 3 weeks and get am IGF-1 performed. Wait 3 to 4 weeks and repeat with the Generic. Hit me up if I lost you!
PHARMA HGH vs. GENERIC HGH - Is There a Difference
The simple answer is...I'm not sure it is. But I'm also not positive it isn't.
Let me lay out a few thoughts and see if you can help me out with a definitive answer.
First of all, why do we use HGH?
Quite simply, after a child reaches puberty, HGH secretion by the Pituitary Glands begins to slow pretty rapidly. Once you reach 30 years old the secretion slows even more. Once you hit 50 years old it is almost non-existent. So we inject HGH to replicate the HGH secretion of a pre-pubescent child. Some of us go over-board, but I'll save that for a later discussion. The HGH signals the liver to produce IGF-1, which is anabolic to muscle. According to William Llewellyn, in his best-selling book Anabolics, "IGF-1, however, also has effects that are also antagonistic to Growth Hormone. This includes increased lipogenesis (fat retention), increased glucose consumption, and decreased glucogenesis. The synergistic and antagonistic effects of these two hormones combine to form the character of HGH. Likewise, they also dictate the effects of somatropin administration, which include the support lipolysis, increased serum glucose levels, and reduced insulin sensitivity.". The reason I mention all this is because, the way our HGH Testing has evolved, we went from HGH Serum Testing being the best way to judge the difference between HGH brands. We found flaws in the process, so we switched to IGF-1 Testing as being the "holy grail". Again, we were not convinced this was the best way. We have now moved on to HPLC and Immunoassay Testing, and as of now, I don't see anything better in the future. Now, let me tie this all together: In none of these Tests have we found Pharma to be any better than any of the top Generic Sponsors on our boards!
CASE CLOSED? I don't think so!
I wrote a while back on ProMuscle about a Podcast I heard. I forgot which Podcast, but one of the participants was Dr. Scott Stevenson, who is one of the most knowledgeable people in our community. Now, I'm going to paraphrase, because I don't remember exactly what his theory was. I will post how I understood it, maybe he will post and give his critique:
I remember his theory as citing a study that said, through extensive testing of Pharma HGH it was found that Pharma actually contained broken or incomplete amino chains that are not found in Generic HGH. The thinking is, "Do these incomplete amino chains act to assist the complete amino chains to "unlock" the receptors to allow the complete chains to bind more efficiently to the muscle receptors."?
Now, I'm not saying that this is the case. Maybe some enlightened and more intelligent people than myself (which is 95% of the planets population) can jump on here add on to the discussion.
In closing, I'm inclined to believe that the HGH we have available here is every bit as effective as any Pharma. Of course, I'm not 100% sure that the "Pharma" we have tested is genuine USA Pharma from Walgreens, CVS, etc. I've heard the Vets on this and every other board claim that the Pharma that was bought from AIDS patients years ago was unbelievably strong. 2 iu's would cripple you for days. I call absolute bullshit on that. Anyone making that statement demonstrates conclusively that they are not entitled to an opinion on the matter. By the way, anyone that has a USA Pharma HGH that has a label (minus personal info) and wants to contribute it to our testing, please hit me up!
Be certain, this is not the end of this discussion. I will return with bigger and better stuff.....Stay tuned!
The simple answer is...I'm not sure it is. But I'm also not positive it isn't.
Let me lay out a few thoughts and see if you can help me out with a definitive answer.
First of all, why do we use HGH?
Quite simply, after a child reaches puberty, HGH secretion by the Pituitary Glands begins to slow pretty rapidly. Once you reach 30 years old the secretion slows even more. Once you hit 50 years old it is almost non-existent. So we inject HGH to replicate the HGH secretion of a pre-pubescent child. Some of us go over-board, but I'll save that for a later discussion. The HGH signals the liver to produce IGF-1, which is anabolic to muscle. According to William Llewellyn, in his best-selling book Anabolics, "IGF-1, however, also has effects that are also antagonistic to Growth Hormone. This includes increased lipogenesis (fat retention), increased glucose consumption, and decreased glucogenesis. The synergistic and antagonistic effects of these two hormones combine to form the character of HGH. Likewise, they also dictate the effects of somatropin administration, which include the support lipolysis, increased serum glucose levels, and reduced insulin sensitivity.". The reason I mention all this is because, the way our HGH Testing has evolved, we went from HGH Serum Testing being the best way to judge the difference between HGH brands. We found flaws in the process, so we switched to IGF-1 Testing as being the "holy grail". Again, we were not convinced this was the best way. We have now moved on to HPLC and Immunoassay Testing, and as of now, I don't see anything better in the future. Now, let me tie this all together: In none of these Tests have we found Pharma to be any better than any of the top Generic Sponsors on our boards!
CASE CLOSED? I don't think so!
I wrote a while back on ProMuscle about a Podcast I heard. I forgot which Podcast, but one of the participants was Dr. Scott Stevenson, who is one of the most knowledgeable people in our community. Now, I'm going to paraphrase, because I don't remember exactly what his theory was. I will post how I understood it, maybe he will post and give his critique:
I remember his theory as citing a study that said, through extensive testing of Pharma HGH it was found that Pharma actually contained broken or incomplete amino chains that are not found in Generic HGH. The thinking is, "Do these incomplete amino chains act to assist the complete amino chains to "unlock" the receptors to allow the complete chains to bind more efficiently to the muscle receptors."?
Now, I'm not saying that this is the case. Maybe some enlightened and more intelligent people than myself (which is 95% of the planets population) can jump on here add on to the discussion.
In closing, I'm inclined to believe that the HGH we have available here is every bit as effective as any Pharma. Of course, I'm not 100% sure that the "Pharma" we have tested is genuine USA Pharma from Walgreens, CVS, etc. I've heard the Vets on this and every other board claim that the Pharma that was bought from AIDS patients years ago was unbelievably strong. 2 iu's would cripple you for days. I call absolute bullshit on that. Anyone making that statement demonstrates conclusively that they are not entitled to an opinion on the matter. By the way, anyone that has a USA Pharma HGH that has a label (minus personal info) and wants to contribute it to our testing, please hit me up!
Be certain, this is not the end of this discussion. I will return with bigger and better stuff.....Stay tuned!
Last edited:
cybrsage
Registered User
- May 1, 2015
- 765
- 0
- 0
Dosage - What is the most effective Dose? - My View
Fat Loss and Life Extension
This is probably the most difficult subject to comment on. Even at the lowest price for generic HGH, the main problem facing most of us is cost. Most would like to keep their dosage at 2iu's per day, and even at that, would like to stick to the "every other day" protocol to make a vial last for a week. Thus, stretching a kit out for 10 weeks. I believe for the benefits of anti-aging, 2 to 4iu's per day is sufficient. For fat loss, I believe 2 to 4iu's prior to fasted cardio is the best way to go. I do not say this because I read it on a forum, or I heard an "expert" preach it. I post this because it worked for me!
HGH in conjunction with AAS
Coaches I have worked with have suggested 6iu's per day for it's synergistic effects with AAS. That being said, I have also been told by a coach that HGH should be avoided. Too risky. It is fair to say, this coach suggested I buy his peptides instead, so you be the judge!
High doses of HGH
Look, we're all tempted to go high with both HGH and AAS. I have injected 10iu's per day for 3 months straight. I did not experience any more benefit than injecting 5iu's per day. Am I saying it won't work? Nope, everyone is different. Possibly, to achieve the true benefit (or side effects) of injecting over 10iu's per day, you need to go 6 months, or a year. I don't feel the risk is worth the rewards (or health risks). Let me explain in the next section.
Hypertrophy vs. Hyperplasia
Each of us genetically have so many muscle cells. When we use AAS, we feed (or better yet, push) water and fuel (sugar) into our muscles. This causes the cells to expand (Hypertrophy). People with "Good" genetics have more muscle cells. Hence, larger muscles.
HGH injection results in a phenomenon called Hyperplasia. This is the actual splitting of muscle cells. I guess you can say it alters your genetics. Supposedly, this is achieved only by high doses. 15 to 20iu's per day? I use a question mark because, I really do not know. ATTENTION! This is something that could also be construed as "Bro-Science", I'll admit it up front! I just thought it was too important not to mention. Please take nothing I say here as advice. We all know. What we do has inherit risks.
I have mentioned this in the past, I feel it should be mentioned again. When we discuss genetics, we are not only speaking about the ability to grow muscle, good muscle insertions, or full muscle bellies. We are talking about your bodies ability to tolerate these PEDs we are utilizing. People with a family history of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. should really think hard about what someone tells them is "safe". Please take every precaution to protect your health, up to, and including abstinence.
As always, I'll be back with more of MY views. You may not agree, but post your thoughts. Or for that matter, questions.
Fat Loss and Life Extension
This is probably the most difficult subject to comment on. Even at the lowest price for generic HGH, the main problem facing most of us is cost. Most would like to keep their dosage at 2iu's per day, and even at that, would like to stick to the "every other day" protocol to make a vial last for a week. Thus, stretching a kit out for 10 weeks. I believe for the benefits of anti-aging, 2 to 4iu's per day is sufficient. For fat loss, I believe 2 to 4iu's prior to fasted cardio is the best way to go. I do not say this because I read it on a forum, or I heard an "expert" preach it. I post this because it worked for me!
HGH in conjunction with AAS
Coaches I have worked with have suggested 6iu's per day for it's synergistic effects with AAS. That being said, I have also been told by a coach that HGH should be avoided. Too risky. It is fair to say, this coach suggested I buy his peptides instead, so you be the judge!
High doses of HGH
Look, we're all tempted to go high with both HGH and AAS. I have injected 10iu's per day for 3 months straight. I did not experience any more benefit than injecting 5iu's per day. Am I saying it won't work? Nope, everyone is different. Possibly, to achieve the true benefit (or side effects) of injecting over 10iu's per day, you need to go 6 months, or a year. I don't feel the risk is worth the rewards (or health risks). Let me explain in the next section.
Hypertrophy vs. Hyperplasia
Each of us genetically have so many muscle cells. When we use AAS, we feed (or better yet, push) water and fuel (sugar) into our muscles. This causes the cells to expand (Hypertrophy). People with "Good" genetics have more muscle cells. Hence, larger muscles.
HGH injection results in a phenomenon called Hyperplasia. This is the actual splitting of muscle cells. I guess you can say it alters your genetics. Supposedly, this is achieved only by high doses. 15 to 20iu's per day? I use a question mark because, I really do not know. ATTENTION! This is something that could also be construed as "Bro-Science", I'll admit it up front! I just thought it was too important not to mention. Please take nothing I say here as advice. We all know. What we do has inherit risks.
I have mentioned this in the past, I feel it should be mentioned again. When we discuss genetics, we are not only speaking about the ability to grow muscle, good muscle insertions, or full muscle bellies. We are talking about your bodies ability to tolerate these PEDs we are utilizing. People with a family history of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc. should really think hard about what someone tells them is "safe". Please take every precaution to protect your health, up to, and including abstinence.
As always, I'll be back with more of MY views. You may not agree, but post your thoughts. Or for that matter, questions.
squatster
AnaSCI VIP
- Mar 27, 2014
- 3,675
- 41
- 48
This is getting good
why do some say not to take the growth every day?
I wonder what the optimal time would be to get the sugars into the musle.
Why once I got older I have a hard time keeping water in my muscle bellies-
Do these have some thing to do with low gh?
Hope I didn't get off the topic
why do some say not to take the growth every day?
I wonder what the optimal time would be to get the sugars into the musle.
Why once I got older I have a hard time keeping water in my muscle bellies-
Do these have some thing to do with low gh?
Hope I didn't get off the topic
K1
Blue-Eyed Devil...
- Jun 25, 2006
- 5,045
- 1
- 38
This has been my question as of late...Throughout the years I never noticed the 5on2off concept, always just everyday protocols (im, iv, subq)...Even going back as far as the days when you would hear you had to run it a minimum of 4iu everyday for 6 months to see the visible results
I have been off everything for years and now just catching up on reading the consensus seems to be NOT to run gh everyday (of course the obvious of shutting down your natural production the same as using Test)...And a lot of mention of metformin with gh use now?!